# How should the media tackle the "hierarchy of death" problem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2022, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829 "2022-04-14T16:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/21 "2022-04-15T17:01:27Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > So, in terms of balance, it makes absolute sense to cover police brutality on blacks more; In terms of _balance_ we should cover all aspects of police brutality equally, regardless of race. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/22 "2022-04-15T17:32:02Z")
I remember some parody headline along the lines of “Two Americans killed overseas; also, a bunch of brown people”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/23 "2022-04-15T18:19:31Z")
Reporters covering the Brooklyn Dodgers once concocted a mock headline, “Entire Dodgers Team Killed In Plane Crash”. The subheading was “Team was returning from 10-game road trip; pitching improved”. The very last line of the story was “Eight sportswriters also perished.”\* \*I am quoting from inexact memory of a gag cited in “The Boys of Summer”. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/24 "2022-04-15T18:54:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > In terms of _balance_ we should cover all aspects of police brutality equally, regardless of race. Eventually, sure. But in the short term I maintain it makes sense to show more of X than Y where X is a problem that society has swept under the carpet or is unaware of. As I say, novelty (relative to the viewer) is one of the most important factors in what makes news. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/25 "2022-04-15T19:16:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > **Should** a war involving, say, Sierra Leone, Uzbekistan or Eritrea get the same coverage and attention as a war involving Ukraine? No. Look a war in the Ukraine is affecting the US and World economy. It has significant international fallout. A war where say Liberia invaded Sierra Leone would be newsworthy and get coverage, but not to the extent a war that impacts us and the rest of the world. In 1941, there was the Ecuadorian–Peruvian War. Are you seriously thinking that should have received the same news coverage as another little conflict going on in Europe? > [@Velocity](#): > > [Hierarchy of death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_death) = generally, white-Caucasian deaths command a lot more attention,… Black Lives Matter is a thing. True, sometimes BLM picks the wrong death to push, but still, the days of a black man being unjustly killed by a cop and the story ignored are mostly gone. And sometimes we get massive coverage as the parents, etc hire a media consultant, lawyer etc to make the death of their child into a media circus. The young intern in Wash DC who was having an affair with a Congressman- her parents made a big stink (iirc, she was finally found to have been killed by a serial killer). And the young man killed in a car vs bicycle accident in the UK has generated a lot of newsprint and a thread here. So sometimes, the media gets it’s arm twisted by people with the resources to make a death into a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/26 "2022-04-15T19:18:39Z")
IIRC, the victims were also Pakistani etc. ?? The police initially didn’t want to get involved as the initial perception this was a cultural thing. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/27 "2022-04-16T04:49:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > IIRC, the victims were also Pakistani etc. ?? The girls involved were mostly white british. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/28 "2022-04-16T04:54:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > in the short term I maintain it makes sense to show more of X than Y where X is a problem that society has swept under the carpet or is unaware of. I don’t see how that helps. The strong implication there is that a crime against ethnicity A is more important than against ethnicity B which seems to run counter to a desire for equality. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/29 "2022-04-16T07:32:43Z")
In addition to everything everyone else has said here, I also think the coverage of Ukraine is influenced by Ukraine having a charismatic and telegenic leader. If Volodymyr Zelensky looked like … uh, like Alexander Lukashenko, the president of Belarus, for instance, I don’t think there would be 1/10th the public awareness or support of Ukraine. I know a lot of people would like to think otherwise, but come on. I’m not saying it’s the sole factor here but it’s a large factor. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/30 "2022-04-16T12:31:59Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The strong implication there is that a crime against ethnicity A is more important than against ethnicity B which seems to run counter to a desire for equality. Not really no. This would be like saying if covid deaths get more coverage than heart attacks then we’re implying that people who died of the former are more important. News is inherently relative to the knowledge, understanding and culture of the viewer. In the short term yes it makes sense to highlight particular cases that represent a problem that millions are still in denial about. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/31 "2022-04-16T12:36:59Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > If Volodymyr Zelensky looked like … uh, like Alexander Lukashenko, the president of Belarus, for instance, I don’t think there would be 1/10th the public awareness or support of Ukraine I think you’re going a bit far there. I think the fact that he stayed in Kiev and didn’t flee is definitely a factor in the awareness and support. But not 10x, and not particularly because of him being photogenic or whatever IMO. Certainly in my circle I don’t know anyone who talks more (or at all) about his image versus the images of civilian deaths. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/32 "2022-04-16T13:43:38Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > In the short term yes it makes sense to highlight particular cases that represent a problem that millions are still in denial about. Following your analogy, it would mean that the general public believes that the police generally beat most white people senseless and that blacks are mostly treated fairly. In that case, you would be correct, it would be proper to highlight those stories where blacks are beaten. But under the point that is being argued, the police overreact and use excessive force against both blacks and whites. Therefore the problem is police brutality and @Novelty_Bobble 's point stands. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/33 "2022-04-16T13:59:40Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Following your analogy, it would mean that the general public believes that the police generally beat most white people senseless and that blacks are mostly treated fairly. No that’s not what I’m getting at. What I’m saying is, if you were to show a video of an extra-judicial killing of a white person, everyone would agree that that’s a problem. On the other hand, there are still plenty of people that try to handwave that blacks are ever treated unfairly and that’s still the framing on many channels such as on Fox. So yeah, it’s still a problem that society is trying to come to terms with. In any case, all this is largely academic. Because, as I say, on channels that have tried to push the idea that whites don’t get equal time, they fail to come up with anything as egregious as philando Castile or Floyd George. So it’s debatable whether there’s a skew anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/34 "2022-04-16T18:14:19Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > What I’m saying is, if you were to show a video of an extra-judicial killing of a white person, everyone would agree that that’s a problem. The current balance of news coverage would not suggest that. > [@Mijin](#): > > they fail to come up with anything as egregious as philando Castile or Floyd George. > So it’s debatable whether there’s a skew anyway. So you are actually saying that there are _no_ cases of white police killings that are as bad as black police killings? With double the number of cases I highly doubt that is correct. What would your response be if someone could find one for you? You seem to be applying your own hierarchy of death here. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/35 "2022-04-16T23:15:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > In any case, all this is largely academic. Because, as I say, on channels that have tried to push the idea that whites don’t get equal time, they fail to come up with anything as egregious as philando Castile or Floyd George. > So it’s debatable whether there’s a skew anyway. Daniel Shaver > **[Shooting of Daniel Shaver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver)** > > On January 18, 2016, Daniel Leetin Shaver of Granbury, Texas, was fatally shot by police officer Philip Brailsford in the hallway of a La Quinta Inn & Suites hotel in Mesa, Arizona. Police were responding to a report that a rifle had been pointed out of the window of Shaver's hotel room. > After the shooting, the rifle (previously assumed to be a lethal weapon), which remained in the room, was determined to be a pellet gun. Following an investigation, Brailsford was charged with second-degree m... > **[Mesa Police shooting: Daniel Shaver seen crawling, begging in disturbing video](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mesa-police-shooting-daniel-shaver-seen-crawling-begging-in-disturbing-video/)** > > Police in Mesa, Arizona released disturbing body camera video on Thursday hours after a former officer was acquitted of murder​ in the fatal shooting of an unarmed man ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/36 "2022-04-16T23:58:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > What I’m saying is, if you were to show a video of an extra-judicial killing of a white person, everyone would agree that that’s a problem. What do you mean by “extra-judicial killing”? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2022, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/37 "2022-04-17T00:45:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The current balance of news coverage would not suggest that [most people would agree that killing a white person would be a problem] How so? This would be like implying that if the news gives disproportionate time to female pedophiles then that means society thinks male pedophiles are fine. “Importance” is just _one_ potential factor in how much coverage particular events get. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So you are actually saying that there are _no_ cases of white police killings that are as bad as black police killings? No, I mean what I said which is that event outlets trying hard to find cases as egregious as philando or Floyd fail to do so. However, absolutely there are terrible cases of police brutality against whites, this is why there needs to be general police reform not just rooting out systemic racism. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2022, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/38 "2022-04-17T01:21:34Z")
The newspapers I mostly read (NY Times and Washington Post) are good. Don’t watch TV and so I shouldn’t comment much on that. The death hierarchy is inevitable, and the hierarchy I see is, in broad outline, reasonable. It is more newsworthy when someone dies of a new disease than an old one. It is more newsworthy when a police officer kils almost anyone than when a career criminal kills another career criminal. And deaths in wars where a combattant might plausibly use nuclear weapons are more newswothy than other equally sized wars. However – I do like stories that step out of the hierarchy box. It is worthwhile to identify the most common kinds of homicide, and write stories about that. As for the Second Congo War, I read a lot about that, but maybe there should have been more. Ukraine is the site of the biggest war on earth this year, but if television is ignoring [the Myanmar Insurgency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%932022_Myanmar_insurgency), which may be the second biggest war right now, they should cover it. Same with Yemen. Those wars aren’t being ignored in papers I read. Wars involving Israel are famous for being covered more, proportionate to the number of deaths, than some other wars. To an extent, this is a reason to cover other wars more. But there are legitimate reasons for excess Arab-Israel conflict coverage, such as, for U.S. media, U.S. diplomatic involvement. Giving more coverage to a topic because of greater reader interest is, I think, legitimate, but you should also present stories on less often covered type of deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2022, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/39 "2022-04-17T04:05:07Z")
i must be on ignore ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2022, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829/40 "2022-04-17T04:14:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > This would be like implying that if the news gives disproportionate time to female pedophiles then that means society thinks male pedophiles are fine. What I mean is that the current balance of media coverage (regarding the ethnicity of those killed by the police) is heavily skewed in one direction. Someone somewhere is making that biased editorial decision and so, no, not “everyone” agrees with you to the same degree and not everyone gets to see the video in the first place because the same level of media attention is not provided. You seem to think that is necessary and correct and you even seem to doubt that any of the killings of white people come up to the level of those of black people. You yourself certainly seem to have decided on a hierarchy of death that you are comfortable with. Me? I think they are all equally bad and if you are truly serious when you say > [@Mijin](#): > > this is why there needs to be general police reform not just rooting out systemic racism. Then the case for doing so is harmed by pretty much ignoring two-thirds of the incidents that would give weight to such a campaign. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-media-tackle-the-hierarchy-of-death-problem/962829.md?page=3)