# How should the Pit be changed, if at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 19, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859 "2021-07-19T23:19:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/281 "2021-07-23T03:01:31Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > There are really two aspects to calling someone out in the Pit > > 1. Highlighting their problematic behavior > 2. Describing their behavior with a profanity-laden personal attack fwiw, I’m willing to bet that the former is more upsetting to someone getting pitted than the latter is. If you are concerned that the pit is driving people away due to being unfriendly, or whatever, I can bet that it’s (1) that’s doing so, and not (2). I mean, I’d be a lot more upset if someone collected a lot of my posts and made a claim I was a racist, and a bunch of other people looked at that evidence and agreed, than I would be if someone called me profanity-ridden names. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/282 "2021-07-23T03:12:32Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > > [@filmore](#): > > > > I can’t comprehend how we agree that kind of speech is hurtful and not appropriate anywhere else in our lives but it’s a-okay in the Pit > > After 20 years, I still find it appalling. Actually, I’m going to disagree about language. It’s crude, and it’s language I would choose not to use under most circumstances, and personally do not use even in the pit, but it’s no more hurtful or inappropriate than much of the language used outside of the pit. Let’s not kid ourselves, the anger between ideologies here and IRL is very real, and putting a veneer of civility over it as other forums require does not in any way reduce the vitriol and hate coming through. When someone calls you part of a ‘Hivemind’, that’s an insult, when someone says ‘all conservatives want to kill’, that’s an insult, when you say ‘all modding is biased against x/y/z’ that’s an insult. In the context of the Pit being bad because it is a danger to new members, I disagree. What the pit does is let people who aren’t part of the 20+ years of tradition say the things that if they responded honestly in other forums would get them quickly warned and banned. While the same posters who complain about the pit have those same 20 years that let them insult away as long as they carefully don’t name names, despite everyone knowing what is going on. Again, the language is not the core of the problem. It’s the sentiments driving the language. If the Pit was gone tomorrow, the posters I already judge based on their posts, my ignore list, and the people that make me automatically leave a thread will not change. And I strongly suspect it would make the issues that some anti-pitters complain about (being followed from thread to thread to find a ‘gotcha’) would instead become far worse, because they have no other outlet, and the hate, for whatever reasons is real. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/283 "2021-07-23T05:25:30Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Let’s not kid ourselves, the anger between ideologies here and IRL is very real, and putting a veneer of civility over it as other forums require does not in any way reduce the vitriol and hate coming through. Almost all of my friends in real life are more conservative than me. Some of them hold views that I believe to be abhorrent. And yet I still find myself able to have a civil conversation with them without calling them names. We argue passionately about politics all the time X we even swear; but I have never found the need to call them names. If we can’t argue about the big issues without hating each other, we might as well all just go home. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/284 "2021-07-23T06:55:44Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I wish the eager pitters could experience what it’s like to be on the wrong side of the mob. Hah hah hah. Thanks for the start-of-the-weekend belly laugh. You seriously think we’ve never been pitted before? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/285 "2021-07-23T07:03:09Z")
Shiit, even _I’ve_ been Pitted! And looking back at it, I was needlessly pedantic. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/286 "2021-07-23T08:33:14Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Yes, the side that hasn’t bothered to do any research and uncritically believes what they have been told. Meanwhile anyone who has is forced to tapdance over landmines in an effort to debunk the misinformation. I think we do a pretty good job of debunking misinformation here. It just that the debunked usually simply pretend it hasn’t happened. > [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > So what are we doing in this thread? It feels like we’re spinning our wheels over something that most users don’t want to change. We’re here because a small group of posters who are repeatedly called out for bad behavior are trying to reinforce the narrative that the reason they’re being pitted is purely irrational partisanship rather than anything they’ve actually done, and to deliberately hobble the forum in which they’re being called out. Note that they don’t actually object to ganging up on other posters for “having differing views” because they do it themselves, and strangely all using the same narrative (which, I’ve been informed, is a sign of “doctrine” and a “hivemind”). They simply do it in ATMB where they can completely reframe what happened in the other fora without challenge - because the challenges would either have to be in the debating fora, where they have already blithely ignored all substantive counterarguments, or in the Pit, where they can point to it as further evidence of their persecution. It’s clear from this thread that they’re using ATMB as a proxy Pit. Which makes their objections to the Pit ring rather hollow. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/287 "2021-07-23T09:55:11Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I think we do a pretty good job of debunking misinformation here. It just that the debunked usually simply pretend it hasn’t happened. This board is very good at debunking the misinformation that’s prominent on the right. It is far less good at applying a skeptical eye to common left-wing beliefs and tropes. Indeed, challenging these is often viewed as trolling or ‘bad behaviour’ by many posters. For those who think the Pit is all about behaviour, how many people have been pitted for posts agreeing with the majority view, and how did those threads go compared to pittings of posters with divergent opinions? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/288 "2021-07-23T10:16:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > {…} It is far less good at applying a skeptical eye to common left-wing beliefs and tropes. {…} If only I had the tiniest reason to think you were talking about anything other than your pet topics. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/289 "2021-07-23T10:36:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > We’re here because a small group of posters who are repeatedly called out for bad behavior are trying to reinforce the narrative that the reason they’re being pitted is purely irrational partisanship rather than anything they’ve actually done, and to deliberately hobble the forum in which they’re being called out. QFT I also remember how others like Sam claimed that being ‘against the current’ made one to be closer to the truth. As I pointed before, then that would make me a champion of the truth. But that would not be really logical. Citing good evidence that exists outside our opinions is needed. Science and evidence would eventually accumulate and support one more or less than before as time goes by. As it turned out, science and evidence supported more and more the positions I had about evolution, the moon landing fact, climate science, etc. The evidence supported less and less the ones that ganged up on me. And most of the ones that ganged up on me in the past are banned now. Not specifically for being wrong about the science or the facts that they thought were on their side, but more because they became more unhinged when it was clear that the sources that “supported” them became less and less reliable. Instead of demanding better from their sources, they thought (and still think) that it was better to curse “politely” at posters that brought evidence that was contrary to their cherished info-sphere. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/290 "2021-07-23T10:53:35Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It is far less good at applying a skeptical eye to common left-wing beliefs and tropes You try advocating Marxism on this board, see how much support you get. Or try calling for the abolition of the nation-state, see how far you get. Hell, even trade unionism, while favoured, is not a no-opposition slam-dunk on this board. Or did you say “left-wing” when you meant “centre-left” or “liberal” or “socially progressive” or something like that? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/291 "2021-07-23T11:24:31Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > For those who think the Pit is all about behaviour, how many people have been pitted for posts agreeing with the majority view, and how did those threads go compared to pittings of posters with divergent opinions? People “agreeing with the majority view” have not in general tended to present themselves in ways that were otherwise obnoxious, although a few have cropped up over the years. Most of those kicked off immediately and then _were_ kicked off shortly thereafter, and thus didn’t last long enough to stick in the memory (although I vaguely recall someone named **Jackalope** or something similar). The aforementioned **HueyFreeman** is the most prominent example of someone espousing a viewpoint many board members agreed with in principle (re: racism in America) but in an utterly toxic way; he won no friends but after he left his main thread was continued in a more constructive vein for a while. Usually these folks’ threads are notable for having the majority of the board - right, left, and center - lining up against them in solidarity - which is something you rarely see with those miscreants holding “divergent opinions”. I mean, there have been multiple times where **Shodan** and I ended up on the same side against some left-wing dickhead pulling the usual trollish “you’re all brainwashed sheeple if you don’t agree completely with me” shtick (and we agreed on very, very little else), but I don’t recall an instance of him ever coming out openly against a right-wing troll. I apologize if pointing out that the liberals/Board regulars/etc have been openly willing to criticize misbehavior on “their side” while the other side tend to “circle the wagons” when one of theirs goes rogue contradicts your preferred narrative, but the evidence is there if you wish to look for it. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/292 "2021-07-23T11:34:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As is well known, I try never to participate in Pit threads. Yet there is a current Pit thread where you’re the OP! ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/293 "2021-07-23T13:34:32Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > We’re here because a small group of posters who are repeatedly called out for bad behavior are trying to reinforce the narrative that the reason they’re being pitted is purely irrational partisanship rather than anything they’ve actually done, and to deliberately hobble the forum in which they’re being called out. I think this is reductive. While there certainly _are_ some posters in this thread like what you describe, there are many others who are just trying to have a productive and adult conversation for the betterment of the board. For example, the OP, who is the actual “reason we are here” and who does not fall into the category you describe, as far as I am aware. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/294 "2021-07-23T13:40:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, though, there’s the “vent about someone being an asshole” aspect. If someone is sealioning, or treating me with withering condescension that comes from a place of ignorance, or otherwise absolutely getting on my last nerve, it’s helpful for me to have a place where I can express my frustration safely, and then return to the other forum and not respond to them in kind. Couldn’t you go play a violent video game, or work out, or any one of the ten thousand healthier ways one can blow off a little steam? Why is it important to have a forum one can insult other people? I’ve never, ever in my life seen a situation where insulting people “helps” anything or anyone. You don’t do this in real life, surely? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/295 "2021-07-23T13:42:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You don’t do this in real life, surely? I don’t ever have people in real life talk to me with the sort of dishonesty or condescension I encounter on this board. As I say, tighten up the rules in other forums, and the Pit will be less necessary. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/296 "2021-07-23T17:55:45Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I went back to the start of the current Troll R US thread, and did a tally for the 1st 500 posts (from last summer). Note in some cases the R US post failed to link to the thread/post and/or didn’t specify the exact handle-was forced to throw those out (1 fit that description). In some cases their failure to come up on search indicated that they were cornfielded. Unless I missed it, you didn’t tell us how many posters were named in that 500 posts so your numbers don’t really tell us anything. Even if only 100 people were named as trolls in those 500 posts, your “trolldar” is worth crap. Twenty five percent success rating is a failure in any class. And you still need to show that those banned were banned because of the troll thread and not because their posts were flagged. And unless the mods specifically noted they were banned for trolling they could just as easily have been socks. As far as I know, socks get cornfielded, not trolls. The only comment I have seen from a mod about the troll thread helping, the number is referred to as a few or some. What I didn’t realize is that the current 4,000+ post thread is the second one. The original thread was closed because it reached 10,000 posts. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/297 "2021-07-23T19:13:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I already experienced that when I defended climate science 15 years ago, thank you very much. You did? I definitely remember a number of threads where you back-and-forth with intention, and frankly those were some of my favorite threads in the history of SDMB. Despite taking a POV that was opposed to the consensus of the science then and now, intention was well-informed and I learned a ton from those. Maybe brazil84 also participated, but I really don’t recall them being a pile-on. If they were, you definitely held your own, though to be fair, you were holding a straight flush. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/298 "2021-07-23T20:31:27Z")
There were several pit threads where the climate change deniers showed up in numbers and were supported [by a few of them who were also bigoted nativists, who followed the dictates of right wing media that had figured then a wedge that they thought was effective](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/greenwashing-nativism/) between environmentalist and immigrant right supporters (not really, as outside the SDMB they failed to change environmentalist groups into following their bigoted solutions). A few of those posters came up later as holocaust deniers and supporters of fascist ideas, but were banned (one did leave before the banhammer came down on him) for being jerks in other threads. Not for their reprehensible ideology. It was very lonely at times, let me tell you. Of course, you are right that because I looked at the science, I was usually holding the better hand. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/299 "2021-07-23T20:43:13Z")
It sounds like you’re referring to threads I either missed or blocked out from my memory. I know on those threads with intention I didn’t tend to jump in because you were handling it well, and I was very much still learning and didn’t have a lot to contribute. I apologize if _that_ felt lonely to you. I could have at least sent an encouraging PM even if I didn’t have much to add publicly. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/300 "2021-07-23T20:44:22Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Unless I missed it, you didn’t tell us how many posters were named in that 500 posts You missed it. See the post you quoted, and also post #170 and following discussion; in particular post #183: > [@John\_DiFool](#): > > > [@Gyrate](#): > > > > So **John\_DiFool** , are we correct in assuming that you are saying that within those 500 posts you have reviewed, 39 individuals were specifically flagged as trolls (of which 23 were banned, eight are still active and eight are not)? > > Yep. > > How else would I approach the subject? ETA: as the number was 39, not 100, your guess at percentage of success. which was based on that guess of 100, is also incorrect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=16)