# How should the Pit be changed, if at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 19, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859 "2021-07-19T23:19:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/322 "2021-07-25T01:37:20Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > No problem. The same point can be made with many issues. For example, someone may have a belief that black people are better at sports. Maybe they came to that belief because they are a racist or maybe because they got the idea from watching pro sports where black athletes make up a greater percentage than they do in society. But regardless, such a person starting a thread about “why are black athletes better than whites” is going to be cast with a racist brush from the beginning and is going to be much more likely to be pitted. Likely their arguments for why black people are better at sports are going to seem racist, and they may actually be. But if instead we actually engage the person, we may be able to work out why there is that discrepancy. We would probably learn it was due to economic differences and that fewer options are available for black people so they are more likely to funnel into athletics while their white peers focus more on academics. But no one should have the misconception that such a discussion is going to be calm and pleasant. Changing societal beliefs is hard and takes time. But pitting the OP as a racist with profanity laden personal insults is just going to drive that person away mentally and/or physically and they are unlikely to learn anything. This is one of those ideas that sounds really good in theory. However, in practice, things don’t tend to go this way. In actual practice, a poster saying something like this is more likely an agenda pusher, or a troll here to stir up shit. It’s just not that likely that they’re utterly clueless about this. Even if they just heard or read someone else saying it, the context is pretty much going to talk about it being perceived as racist. That said, knowing this board, there will likely be some attempt to answer their question. There may also be some rumbling in the Troll thread in the Pit, but we go out of our way to not alert the poster of this. A normal, non-trolling poster doesn’t tend to check those threads. And, even if they did, most Internet savvy people would be understanding of being wary of trolls. The point where people start actively trying to push the poster away will be when the poster gets stubborn and won’t listen, or gives more clues that indicate they were posting disingenuously. It’ll be past the point where anything else can be said to convince them. You talk of how the discussion will be unpleasant. But you act like our goal should be to put this one guy over everything else. The main argument for getting rid of this stuff is that there’s little chance of convincing people, and a huge downside of making their targets feel unwelcome. The more accommodating you are to a bigot, the less accommodating you are to those who face bigotry. What I recommended at one time was just that we link the poster to the numerous threads on the topic, and tell them read them and come back if they think they have something new to add. PM a mod to open the thread again. Sure, debunking a societal belief is hard. But that’s not what we’re doing with this obvious stuff. Society has moved on from thinking that black people are better athletes. This is a single person, who may not even be legitimately asking. And we can’t ignore the downsides of this discussion. I can’t speak for any black people on whether or not having that question around would make them feel unweclcome. But I can say that bigotry in general tend to make the minority targets feel unwelcome. That’s the type of stuff that I don’t want here. I don’t like that people have said they left the board due to how we wouldn’t deal with misogyny, transphobia, etc. I’d rather risk pushing away the posters who engage in that stuff than to keep pushing away minorities. That’s what gets left out in these things that sound good. We think about the rare possibility of maybe actually getting to the root and resolving a bigoted action. It may be “unpleasant” to those of us who aren’t directly affected, but it can be a lot more to others. There’s a reason why most places with civility rules just blanketly prohibit this type of bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/323 "2021-07-25T02:02:15Z")
The belief that only ‘badly behaving’ people get pitted is ridiculous. I don’t generally like posting personal examples, but I will offer one here. I started an op with this, posted in its entirety so I don’t get pitted for selective quoting: > [@](#): > > This is quite something. Donald Trump tweeted today: > > > [@](#): > > > > "I have fully authorized the total Declassification of any & all documents pertaining to the single greatest political CRIME in American History, the Russia Hoax. Likewise, the Hillary Clinton Email Scandal. No redactions! > > This follows a number of releases of some newly-declassified documents which at least suggest that not only was Russia/Collusion invented by the Hillary Clinton campaign to distract from her E-mail scandal, but that the CIA knew that Hillary was planning this and briefed President Obama about it beforehand. > > If true, this means that all the principles involved in the three year investigation of Trump knew that it was a political hit job right from the beginning. > > > [@](#): > > > > Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe on Tuesday declassified documents that revealed former CIA Director John Brennan briefed former President Obama on Hillary Clinton’s purported “plan” to tie then-candidate Donald Trump to Russia as “a… > > Yes, it’s a link to Fox News, but I used them because the article has the best set of links to the source documents. > > Possibly related, the Justice Department has annouced a press conference for tomorrow morning at 11 AM ‘on a matter of national security’. I have no idea what it is, but coming right after Trump’s order to declassify all documents related to the Russia Collusion investigation, I suspect it’s related. However, it could be them complaining about how dangerous the release of the docs is for national security or something. Or maybe they are going to announce new investigations in light of the release. > > Thoughts? My first one was that if Trump was guilty of any collusion at all, he would never have authorized the complete release of all documents without redaction. So at lest HE believs something is there that, if released, will help his re-election. Maybe he’s deluded. > > This does seem like a good candidate for an ‘October Surprise’. I’m interested in other ways to interpret this, though. I don’t trust either side to play straight these days, so getting both sides seems to be the only way to make sense of things. > > Comments? Speculation on the presser tomorrow? It includes the assistant Attorney General, the current Director of the FBI, the acting head of the Washington Field office of the FBI, and a U.S. attorney for Eastern Virginia. > > Based on the players, myt guess is that it looks like some sort of criminal investigation or indictment is coming down inside Virginia related to national security. A few points: First of all, that thread devolved into enough personal insults against me that the mods had to shut the thread down. _Yet not a single person got an official warning._ The mob, having lost their outlet to attack me there, then had their fun in this pit thread: > [@Sam Stone believes Trump's tweets](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633): > > The ridiculous “declassify” [thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-declassifies-all-documents-related-to-russia-collusion-and-hillary-emails/922448) was closed, so @Sam_Stone wasn’t able to come back and apologize for his tragic yet hilarious gullibility in accepting Trump’s tweets at face value. Care to do so here, Sam? Why on Earth did you think this was anything more than the random poo flinging Trump takes part in every day? That’s just one of many examples. Many of the pittings on this board have absolutely nothing to do with bad behaviour - they have to do woth one side of the political fence using the pit to attack the other side for their supposed gullibility, stupidity, or if they can find the thinnest reed to hang on, racist, sexist, misogynist or transphobic behaviour. If they just restricted it to the arguments, fine. But it always devolves into character attacks, often extremely vile ones, for the crime of being on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/324 "2021-07-25T02:31:29Z")
Missing on your post was what was observed then by @iiandyiiii : “I just posted a cite. This bullshit was rejected by the Republicans in the Senate. It’s completely bogus.” Even @Deeg who is more conservative than many here had to say: “I predict that this thread will not reflect well on Mr Stone by the time this all comes out.” And then there were many posts from you ignoring how Trump and other sources took you for a ride; as I pointed before, it will be always interesting for me to see the phenomenon of the pitted ones demonizing the ones that made corrections and made better cites in a discussion while the pitted one never bothers to take the sources that misled him or her to task. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/325 "2021-07-25T02:42:28Z")
So you agree that the pitting was not for bad behaviour, but simply because in your opinion I was gullible? I even said later in the thread that I generally disbelieve everything Trump said, but only gave this credibility because it seemed too specific and easy to check, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt just once. I have repeatedly said on this board that Trump is an ass, that he lies constantly, and I called him ‘a stain on the presidency.’ That didn’t stop a pit thread titled, “Sam Stone Believes Trump’s Tweets” Wrong or right, there was nothing about my post that could be classified as bad behaviour warranting a pitting. That pit thread now has over 900 posts in it. Oh, and Gigobuster, do you have any comment on the belief stated above that no one on this board has spammed unrelated threads with global warming stuff? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/326 "2021-07-25T03:00:31Z")
I would have to agree that it doesn’t sound like there was anything in that post that can be construed as bigoted, or the sort of post that drives away members of conferrable minorities. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/327 "2021-07-25T03:29:36Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So you agree that the pitting was not for bad behavioyr, but simply because in your opinion Inwas gullible? I think that dismissing the evidence that it was a gullible thing to follow was the bad behavior in this case. That is not what the SDMB should be about. As for the dig about global warming, there was a conscious decision by me to not start threads about the subject. I think there were just a few. Most of the spamming and thread creation came from misled posters, I was just corrected them many times before. Speaking more in general, the issue remains, you need to take your sources to task when they misled you a lot. As it is, the Climate Change Computer modelers, environmentalists like Rachel Cranston, the minority professors and teachers that have their lives threatened thanks to the Orwellian lies the right wing media is telling about Critical Race Theory, and many others out there, send you their regards. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/328 "2021-07-25T04:05:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Missing on your post was what was observed then by @iiandyiiii : > > “I just posted a cite. This bullshit was rejected by the Republicans in the Senate. It’s completely bogus.” > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I think that dismissing the evidence that it was a gullible thing to follow was the bad behavior in this case. That is not what the SDMB should be about. **Sam\_Stone** didn’t dismiss the evidence. He answered **iiandyiiii** with this. He disagreed. > [@Donald Trump Declassifies all Documents Related to Russia/Collusion and Hillary Emails](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/donald-trump-declassifies-all-documents-related-to-russia-collusion-and-hillary-emails/922448/9): > > You and Politico missed the whole point. It’s not whether the Russian info about Hillary was correct, and even Brennan at the time could not verify it. But it does indicate that people had information that Hillary was about to try this attack - and then the attack they were warned about showed up. That should be suspicious as hell. Also, declassified docs have also shown that Christopher Steele’s ‘source’ for Trump dirt had been recently investigated by the CIA for ties to Russian Intelli… **GIGObuster** , what about **Sam\_Stone** ’s disagreement is not what the SDMB should be about in general, not the content? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/329 "2021-07-25T04:08:04Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > **Sam\_Stone** didn’t dismiss the evidence. He answered **iiandyiiii** with this. He disagreed. Uh, disagreeing does not take away any of what I pointed out. And after what you pointed at, there was more evidence that showed how unreliable Trump was… again. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/330 "2021-07-25T04:09:01Z")
That thread was just about mocking what I saw as extreme gullibility, akin to believing a convicted con artist who says they have a great deal on a bridge to sell you. It didn’t go any deeper than that. The Pit is the appropriate place for that kind of mockery and ribbing, ISTM. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/331 "2021-07-25T06:12:02Z")
That’s fine. Just so that we’ve established that it’s not just ‘bad behaviour’ that gets you pitted. It’s also for being, in your opinion, gullible. Or stupid. Or misinformed, or stubborn, or… ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2021, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/332 "2021-07-25T06:28:46Z")
Is relitigating every past Pit thread really helpful? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/333 "2021-07-26T18:50:33Z")
It looks like 67.5% of the 111 votes so far have voted for no changes to the pit. Seems like a pretty decisive win. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/334 "2021-07-26T19:07:04Z")
**53%.** It is right there. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/335 "2021-07-26T19:09:35Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > It looks like 67.5% of the 111 votes so far have voted for no changes to the pit. Seems like a pretty decisive win. Assuming that such polls have any value. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/336 "2021-07-26T20:46:32Z")
Umm . . . no. There are now 113 voters and 155 total votes. On the assumption that voters who voted for no changes are necessary didn’t also vote for changes. 53% of the 155 total votes have been for no changes which means 82.15 votes for no changes out of 113 voters is now 72.6% of the total number of voters. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/337 "2021-07-26T20:58:33Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > On the assumption that voters who voted for no changes are necessary didn’t also vote for changes. I don’t think we can really make this assumption, though. I could easily imagine someone voting for multiple options, like “I’m OK with no changes or this small change, but not these larger changes,” for example. (I almost did that myself.) ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/338 "2021-07-26T21:10:36Z")
These kinds of polls aren’t really good for any kind of analysis since it’s not necessarily representing the board’s population. The only people who vote are those who choose to vote. If the “I like the Pit” people are much more likely to take the survey, then the survey will overly represent those views. If the “I hate the Pit” people ignore everything about the Pit, they may not take the effort to participate in a thread like this. [![](https://i.imgur.com/V0lovbh.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/V0lovbh.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/339 "2021-07-26T21:12:36Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If the “I hate the Pit” people ignore everything about the Pit, they may not take the effort to participate in a thread like this. Alternatively, since the thread is titled “how should the Pit be changed”, you may get an overabundance of people who think the Pit should be changed while people who don’t think it should be changed disregard the thread. But, 115 voters is probably a pretty significant proportion of the total number of active posters around here. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/340 "2021-07-26T21:13:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > you may get an overabundance of people who think the Pit should be changed while people who don’t think it should be changed disregard the thread. At least one has no opinion whatsoever and hasn’t voted. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/341 "2021-07-26T21:28:56Z")
It is also an inherently low value poll as too many questions. It should be a series of polls and not just 1. At very least 2 polls. First a simple one. Basically Yes or No followed by one asking what changes should be addressed. 115 voters is a fairly significant number of active posters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=18)