# How should the Pit be changed, if at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 19, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859 "2021-07-19T23:19:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2021, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/523 "2021-08-14T23:22:24Z")
Well it’s because the rules are enforced in an arbitrary and inconsistent manner and the rules themselves are borderline farcical. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2021, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/524 "2021-08-14T23:34:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > AIUI, the distinction that’s usually made is between slurs that are intrinsically denigrating an entire group of people, and personal insults that target only the individual. The example _SL_ brought up is not denigrating an entire group of people. Yet many posters still seem to feel it should not be allowed. Meanwhile speculating on whether the pittee has a mental illness or developmental disorder is apparently somehow _not_ considered disparaging to an entire group of people. But really, you’re in the position of worrying about collateral damage while being unwilling to ban the shootouts. The real answer is to take away the guns. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/525 "2021-08-14T23:51:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The example _SL_ brought up is not denigrating an entire group of people. Could you kindly point me to a post number or link for that? The post of yours that I replied to was a reply to BigT’s quoted post, and I’m not sure exactly which of S\_L’s posts you’re referring to here. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/526 "2021-08-15T00:15:38Z")
Didn’t you read the thread? I’m talking about _ZS_ accusing him of risking or allowing his kids to be molested in order to show loyalty to the Catholic church. Besides, if you read @BigT’s post again you’ll see he is not making the same argument you did: > [@BigT](#): > > No amount of anger makes it okay to attack someone for their illness or to bring up their trauma, as that retraumatize them. No amount of anger makes it okay to attack someone’s family or children. It’s not about using insults that also insult some group, it’s about some insults just being too serious in his judgement. (Which judgement he then claims to be some kind of universal.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/527 "2021-08-15T00:20:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Didn’t you read the thread? Yes. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m talking about _ZS_ accusing him of risking or allowing his kids to be molested in order to show loyalty to the Catholic church. Do you have a post number or a link for that specific reference? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/528 "2021-08-15T00:27:30Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > No amount of anger makes it okay to attack someone for their illness or to bring up their trauma, as that retraumatize them. No amount of anger makes it okay to attack someone’s family or children. > > It’s not about using insults that also insult some group, it’s about some insults just being too serious I think those examples align with the distinction I was referring to: those are insults that by their very nature slop over onto somebody else, whether it’s other people who suffer from a particular mental illness or trauma, or the family or children who aren’t party to the argument. It’s that collateral-damage aspect that tends to make us perceive an insult as “too serious”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/529 "2021-08-15T04:23:47Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m talking about _ZS_ accusing him of risking or allowing his kids to be molested in order to show loyalty to the Catholic church. And you don’t find the statement, “your priests are child molesters” to be denigrating towards Catholics in general? ---
**Author:** ![Enjoy\_Slurm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enjoy_slurm/32/3937_2.png) [@Enjoy\_Slurm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enjoy_Slurm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/530 "2021-08-15T04:26:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well it’s because the rules are enforced in an arbitrary and inconsistent manner and the rules themselves are borderline farcical. Are you saying ALL the rules are “farcical” or just specific ones? If you mean just specific ones could you please specify which ones you are talking about. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/531 "2021-08-15T06:10:21Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s not a forum where you just go to gratuitously insult and bully people. If people ever get piled on, it’s because they respond and act like assholes. So, humor me a little. 1. What’s your nickname on this board? 2. How many times have people called you that nickname, roughly? 3. Wasn’t your nickname used so much it became the go to phrase for people you were sick of hearing from? 4. You often say you are a Christian or try to be a Christian. Do you think Jesus approves of the Pit? You know, WWJD? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/532 "2021-08-15T09:38:07Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Do you have a post number or a link for that specific reference? Thanks. 504 506 508 509 510 511 512 517 518 519 in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/533 "2021-08-15T09:55:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > In real life, you don’t get to call a friend, acquaintance or stranger into a room and rant about how they’re bigoted/annoying/not conversing in your preferred manner, with added insults. Proof, once again, that we live in completely different “real life” worlds. If someone in my circles made, say, a homophobic comment at a party, you can be damn sure that’s exactly what would happen. The degree of insults dependent on the degree of friendship, though, I’d be a _lot_ more insulting to a friend than a stranger. > [@](#): > > What the hell kind of social circles do you move in that you think this is remotely acceptable behaviour? Ones that believe in confronting bigotry, rather than pretending it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/534 "2021-08-15T10:27:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And you don’t find the statement, “your priests are child molesters” to be denigrating towards Catholics in general? I think it’s irrelevant to why people believe what **ZS** said is not acceptable. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I think those examples align with the distinction I was referring to: those are insults that by their very nature slop over onto somebody else, whether it’s other people who suffer from a particular mental illness or trauma, or the family or children who aren’t party to the argument. It’s that collateral-damage aspect that tends to make us perceive an insult as “too serious”. Bringing up someone’s trauma so as to retraumatize them doesn’t ‘slop over onto somebody else’. Telling someone that they are ‘performatively’ exposing their kids to abuse, or their family or the world would be better off without them isn’t insulting the kids or any whole group of people. They’re just fucking awful things to do. Opposing insulting people based on group characteristics is a commonplace, but I don’t believe it’s what we are talking about here. What I can’t understand is the mindset that it’s okay to insult people, attack their insecurities, bully and deliberately try to hurt them, but _this_ particular bad thing is beyond the pale. It’s not okay. None of it is okay. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/535 "2021-08-15T13:41:51Z")
Yeah, maybe once you make that same exact argument for another 530 posts maybe you’ll convince someone. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/536 "2021-08-15T14:56:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Ones that believe in confronting bigotry, rather than pretending it doesn’t exist. I’m with MrDibble on this one. Confront, call out bigotry rather than defend or excuse it, minimize or justify it. On my best days I try to educate about it but in doing so I am going to call it what it is. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/537 "2021-08-15T20:46:05Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > You often say you are a Christian or try to be a Christian. Do you think Jesus approves of the Pit? You know, WWJD? > But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. > > If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Good stuff, isn’t it? Much better than the ‘throw the whole person away’ attitude that’s so prevalent on modern social media. Shame so few Christians follow it. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/538 "2021-08-15T21:48:54Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Good stuff, isn’t it? Much better than the ‘throw the whole person away’ attitude that’s so prevalent on modern social media. Shame so few Christians follow it. Yeah, for some reason that Jesus dude is a big stumbling block for a lot of people that are eager to tell you how good a Christian they are. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/539 "2021-08-15T22:21:10Z")
It’s a high bar to reach. But damn, they could at least _try_. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/540 "2021-08-15T22:23:28Z")
I’d like to take this moment to remind every one that I am Jewish. Pitting Baruch Espinoza (commonly called Benedict Spinoza) and others wasn’t just done- it was art. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/541 "2021-08-16T01:03:04Z")
**Moderator Note** This is ATMB, not the Pit. If you want to keep this thread open, everyone needs to stop snipping at each other and focus on the actual topic, please. Feel free to take your religious (and other) jabs to the actual Pit though, if you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/542 "2021-08-16T03:24:32Z")
Two posters decided to attack my dead veteran father in the pit, also. No one did anything. a Mod ever participated and said nothing. > [@BigT](#): > > And I seem to remember a note about keeping the focus on @DrDeth and not his father. I must have missed that. > [@BigT](#): > > The only reason to say that all of this is allowed is if we were actually doing what people like @DrDeth or @mordecaiB accuses us of. It’s not a forum where you just go to gratuitously insult and bully people. If people ever get piled on, it’s because they respond and act like assholes. Yes, it is. I admit I have been a bit of an asshole for time to time. But so? Many posters have. Does that allow a poster to accuse my Veteran father of “stolen virtue”? For a fucking participation award? One you get just for being there? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Ones that believe in confronting bigotry, rather than pretending it doesn’t exist. But that isn’t. Instead you and others into a special corner of this MB and post vile insults to posters who are likely never going to read them. If you were to confront them, you would call them out in the post where they said that. And that is 100% legit on this board. **You have always been able to say a post appears bigoted and why.** But rather than do that, and risk getting proven wrong in adult dialog debate, you instead go somewhere else and call them names. That is, in no way shape or form “confronting bigotry”. _That is running away from a confrontation._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=28)