# How should the Pit be changed, if at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 19, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859 "2021-07-19T23:19:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/567 "2021-08-16T15:24:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This is incredibly surprising to me. My attitude on things like homosexuality, race, trans rights, etc certainly changed over time. It didn’t happen because I magically turned up the “better person” dial on my personality matrix. It happened because I, or people around me, said or did things that weren’t OK; got called out; thought about it; and adjusted my attitude. Yeah. I’ve been called out on bigotry by friends. I have found it helpful, honestly. It’s awkward to call out a friend, but I’ve done it, too. Haven’t lost any friends over that. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/568 "2021-08-16T15:30:08Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yeah. I’ve been called out on bigotry by friends. I have found it helpful, honestly. It’s awkward to call out a friend, but I’ve done it, too. Haven’t lost any friends over that. I bet they didn’t gang up on you to tell you what a vile, horrible person you were, though. Seems to me that criticising the statement, not the person, is _far_ more likely to persuade someone. And you don’t need the it for the Pit for that. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/569 "2021-08-16T15:37:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If nothing else, it lets them know that other people see their behaviour, that previously-silenced people aren’t as afraid of bigots anymore, that their targets have allies, and also gives them a strong sense that they’re on the wrong side of history. That tends to make many people rethink their stances. Nailed it (as usual). ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/570 "2021-08-16T15:39:30Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I bet they didn’t gang up on you to tell you what a vile, horrible person you were, though. > > Seems to me that criticising the statement, not the person, is _far_ more likely to persuade someone. And you don’t need the it for the Pit for that. It’s been said before, and I’ll repeat it because it bears repeating. Most people here who say bigoted/racist/unthinking things for _the first time_ don’t get pitted (unless they’re suspected of being a sock/trock/troll). The people who get pitted for that sort of language and behavior are the ones that are doing it over and over and over again. As has been said to exhaustion on this topic, the Pit is most frequently used to identify people who have _patterns_ of behavior. Since you’ll see something unpleasant in a single thread, and then in the pit thread you’ll see another dozen examples from other threads you haven’t read. And this is for someone who opposed omnibus pit threads mind you. Like pretty much everyone else has pointed out, ignoring the trolls is very little different from feeding them, they’ll just increase the volume until someone responds, or they’ll still _win_ (in their own head) because no one dares challenge them. The Pit calls them out on their actions. No, the Pit is not a pleasant place. No, it is not our _best_ face either. But it is a necessary place as long as there are terrible people who refuse to argue in good faith or reality based information. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/571 "2021-08-16T15:51:27Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > It’s been said before, and I’ll repeat it because it bears repeating. Most people here who say bigoted/racist/unthinking things for _the first time_ don’t get pitted (unless they’re suspected of being a sock/trock/troll). The people who get pitted for that sort of language and behavior are the ones that are doing it over and over and over again. Well then, it isn’t comparable to the real life actions people have been talking about. No one treats their friends, coworkers etc that way. If you’re friends with someone and you really think they are racist, you stop being friends. And if it’s a coworker, maybe you try to avoid them as much as possible, or maybe you speak to the boss depending on circumstances. You don’t launch into a profanity-laced rant at them. > [@ParallelLines](#): > > No, the Pit is not a pleasant place. No, it is not our _best_ face either. But it is a necessary place as long as there are terrible people who refuse to argue in good faith or reality based information. Why is it necessary to bully people merely for being different? _Why_? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/572 "2021-08-16T15:52:35Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > {…} As has been said to exhaustion on this topic, the Pit is most frequently used to identify people who have _patterns_ of behavior. Since you’ll see something unpleasant in a single thread, and then in the pit thread you’ll see another dozen examples from other threads you haven’t read. {…} In before someone declares identifying patterns and citing examples is a violation of this rule, _Bringing up a poster’s history in unrelated threads for the purpose of harassing them is not allowed. Following a poster from thread to thread to mock them about older, off-topic posts could be considered harassment and is potentially sanctionable._ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/573 "2021-08-16T15:54:05Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I bet they didn’t gang up on you to tell you what a vile, horrible person you were, though. I’m guessing from the context that when called out he didn’t just double down on his positions or deliberately pretend that the criticism was about something else entirely in order to avoid acknowledging the problem. Being able to take constructive criticism to heart and work to improve is a worthy endeavor, even (and sometimes especially) if the behavior being criticized is notably bad. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Why is it necessary to bully people merely for being different? _Why_ ? Nobody is being “bullied” “merely for being different”. Unless you think “Some people think persecution is bad and some people think it’s good” counts as “people merely being different”. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/574 "2021-08-16T15:56:45Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I bet they didn’t gang up on you to tell you what a vile, horrible person you were, though. I generally avoid this by NOT being a vile, horrible person. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/575 "2021-08-16T15:57:28Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > {…} Why is it necessary to bully people merely for being different? Right? I mean what’s wrong with people saying Blacks are genetically inferior sub-humans that we should, at best, put back into their proper place as chattel property since, for some reason, we can’t exterminate them? And don’t get me started on those men pretending to be women! ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/576 "2021-08-16T16:04:03Z")
From what I understand, it’s hard to hear when you’re carrying a cross. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/577 "2021-08-16T16:05:38Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Right? I mean what’s wrong with people saying Blacks are genetically inferior sub-humans that we should, at best, put back into their proper place as chattel property since, for some reason, we can’t exterminate them? > > And don’t get me started on those men pretending to be women! No one has been Pitted for saying those things. That’s the point. For example, as far as I can see DrDeth was pitted mostly because some people found him annoying. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/578 "2021-08-16T16:06:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Well then, it isn’t comparable to the real life actions people have been talking about. No, it’s more comparable to > [@kayaker](#): > > At a bar I spent loads of time at pre-pandemic, there was a guy who would spout some nasty racist vitriol. We pretty much all just ignored him. Our ignoring him led to his ramping up his garbage. A few of us approached the owner and told him it was him or us. He was told to drink elsewhere. I have better things to do than debate assholes. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/579 "2021-08-16T16:07:12Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > I generally avoid this by NOT being a vile, horrible person. So if you were on a forum with lots of fundies, would you pretend to agree with them in order to avoid them calling you out? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/580 "2021-08-16T16:09:09Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > So if you were on a forum with lots of fundies, Why would anyone other than a “fundie” want to spend time with a bunch of “fundies”? ETA: I spend time with relatives who are Catholic. They know I’m an atheist. We do not discuss religion, because why would we? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/581 "2021-08-16T16:14:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not the same thing. If the post is untrue, then saying “that is not true” is more or less that same as saying “that is a lie”. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Again, not what I’m talking about. Searching before the move is pants, and google no longer works for searching this site, but it was, IIRC, tom who said something along the lines of “don’t call a poster racist _or imply that they are_ ” and that was generally interpreted as not being able to say a plain “that is racist” of a post. Again, you can not call the poster racist, but you can say the post sounds bigoted or racist. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Calling a racist a racist isn’t name-calling, it’s speaking a truth. If indeed they are, but if they are not a racist but someone just wants to call them one, it is the opposite of the truth. > [@MrDibble](#): > > If nothing else, it lets them know that other people see their behaviour, that previously-silenced people aren’t as afraid of bigots anymore, that their targets have allies, and also gives them a strong sense that they’re on the wrong side of history. That tends to make many people rethink their stances. It could do that IRL, but not here. And sure, I have called people out for bigotry, but not by name calling. That is just a good way to start a fight. > [@ParallelLines](#): > > As has been said to exhaustion on this topic, the Pit is most frequently used to identify people who have _patterns_ of behavior. Hardly. > [@DemonTree](#): > > No one has been Pitted for saying those things. That’s the point. For example, as far as I can see DrDeth was pitted mostly because some people found him annoying. And no doubt I was, and still am. And when people approached me in ATMB with constructive criticism, I changed a few things posters found annoying. But the Piting did nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/582 "2021-08-16T16:22:15Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Why is it necessary to bully people merely for being different? So bigotry, racism and the like are just different opinions, and people have a right to their opinions so why get down on them? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/583 "2021-08-16T16:24:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But the Piting did nothing. Could you clarify? By “the Piting” are you referring to when _you_ were Pited or when you Pited @DocCathode ? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/584 "2021-08-16T16:26:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If the post is untrue, then saying “that is not true” is more or less that same as saying “that is a lie”. That is not true, but I don’t think you’re deliberately stating something false. A lie is a deliberate false statement intended to deceive. If the Pit thread did nothing, that’s on you. You said that you were going to make some changes. Whatever your reason is for changing your mind about that, that’s on you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/585 "2021-08-16T16:51:02Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > merely for being different? Well, there’s a phrase that’s doing a _lot_ of heavy lifting. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/586 "2021-08-16T16:54:24Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Bringing up a poster’s history in unrelated threads for the purpose of harassing them is not allowed. Of course (as I know you know 🙂), it’d be a bullshit argument, because if you make a Pit thread about them, that’s in no way an _unrelated_ thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=30)