# How should the Pit be changed, if at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 19, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859 "2021-07-19T23:19:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/607 "2021-08-17T16:33:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Reporting them to the moderators? Of course this means that people won’t get public credit for pointing out the baddies, but it seems like a a more than fair trade-off to me. Not that I totally disagree, but the mods have mentioned repeatedly that they don’t want to draw ‘bright lines’. I’ve reported what was (IMHO of course) bigoted, bad-faith, or otherwise wildly inaccurate information and posts. The response was that there wasn’t an explicitly broken rule - debate it in the thread. Which is fair, otherwise they’re not going to be mods, they’re going to be referees for every single debate and thread. As I was told, mods are a scarce resource, and they often are getting called in to flags on hundred plus threads they aren’t reading - thus a lot of things get the ‘not bad enough’ pass. In a different ATMB thread, I suggested that if we want the pit gone then we need to be able to call out behaviors in said threads directly, rather than dancing around the topic. So, if we want to get the ‘abuse’ gone from the Pit, we’re going to have more (if perhaps more polite) direct confrontation in the threads themselves. If someone makes the same debunked argument again and again in multiple threads, you should be able to call them out as a liar, or bigot, or whatever their behavior is. Personally, as I’ve said before, I think having a place to ‘take it outside’ is better than having a constant fight in the thread itself or having the moderators evoke high-school level debate rules. For those who think the Pit is often a toxic place, I agree. But that’s because people have emotions, interests and concerns. We are not ever in this world going to be perfect. If the choice is to keep most of board tolerant and polite, with say an overall toxicity of 10-20%, the price is a pit at 80-90% toxic. Or go for relaxed standards elsewhere and have the board be 30-40% toxic all of the time but no artificial concentration. Both work, and the majority of the internet goes for the 30-40% option. Not worse, not better. But very human. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/608 "2021-08-17T16:34:10Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > it’s not clear that personal insults are essential to make that happen. The other side is saying just calling racists racist is in-and-of-itself enough of a personal insult that it should also not be allowed. So “motherfucker” and “racist” are considered equally bad. I, for one, would gladly give up motherfucker if allowed to call racists racist _immediately where they’re being racists_. If you’re going to have me go to the Pit to do so, expect a little “motherfucker” for my extra pains. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/609 "2021-08-17T16:52:46Z")
No one “cheered it on”. That is not true. _Everyone_ in that thread was concerned about the situation. No one said anything close to “Yeah, that’s greta all those kids were buried in unmarked graves”. And this is why posters can’t be trusted to Pit people for bigotry, since they are usually wrong. What they mean is “you were not 100% in bobblehead agreement with everything I posted, thus you are a racist”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/610 "2021-08-17T16:59:11Z")
Why is that a “consequence”? Do you think those being pitted care? Is it some sort pf punishment? Or is it more "_Hey, look what a great person I am, I am calling out a poster for being a bigot, by calling him names!_ > [@ParallelLines](#): > > If someone makes the same debunked argument again and again in multiple threads, you should be able to call them out as a liar, or bigot, or whatever their behavior is. Why do you need to use those terms? Why not just call out the behavior right there when they make the post? > [@MrDibble](#): > > I, for one, would gladly give up motherfucker if allowed to call racists racist _immediately where they’re being racists_ . You can, by hitting the Report button, and responding to that post by saying how that post is racist. However, you do know that maybe you are just plain wrong, and the poster is in no way racist, just that they do not agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/611 "2021-08-17T17:05:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You can, by hitting the Report button, The mods definitely do not agree with me on what is and isn’t racist. > [@DrDeth](#): > > responding to that post by saying how that post is racist. But I don’t _want_ to say the post is racist. I _want_ to say the poster is. > [@DrDeth](#): > > However, you do know that maybe you are just plain wrong, and the poster is in no way racist Yes, and when that happens (rare as that is) I can be convinced and apologize, as I’ve already said. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No one “cheered it on”. That is not true. I’m not going to relitigate that thread again, but yes, the poster in question definitely did. They may have expressed regret that some kids had to die for it, but the idea of destroying everything that was Native culture? They were all for it. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/612 "2021-08-17T17:05:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why is that a “consequence”? Do you think those being pitted care? > > Is it some sort pf punishment? (Quote truncated by me to only address this point) If you don’t think that the people being Pitted care about being Pitted, then why do you care so much that you want that forum eliminated? It seems like you’re saying that people don’t think it’s a big deal when they get Pitted, but it _is_ a big deal if the person being Pitted is you. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/613 "2021-08-17T17:06:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > If someone makes the same debunked argument again and again in multiple threads, you should be able to call them out as a liar, or bigot, or whatever their behavior is. > > Why do you need to use those terms? Why not just call out the behavior right there when they make the post? I’m not sure I understand your comment. I am saying that if someone lies (and repeating for the umpteenth time something that has been factually disproven is a lie even if they believe it) you can and should be able to call them a liar without it being considered an insult in all forums, right there in the thread, exactly as you say. I’m saying this sort of change would/should be needed if we restrict or remove the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/614 "2021-08-17T17:09:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > racism itself has never been banned. You are correct, I was not careful enough. Hate speech and discrimination are banned, but not explicitly “racism.” My point to DemonTree was that obvious examples of hate speech are easily reported and will likely be modded swiftly, and so are hardly worth discussing. It is in the areas where there is disagreement about whether something is racist or misogynist (for example) where Pit proponents would argue such a venue is needed. So if someone wants to change the Pit, they need to propose an alternate solution. Czarcasm, above, suggested that reporting to the Mods may be adequate, but others have already posited several problems with that proposal earlier in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/615 "2021-08-17T17:13:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What they mean is “you were not 100% in bobblehead agreement with everything I posted, thus you are a racist”. …said the guy who derails every thread where the term “developing countries” is mentioned by accusing the person who said it as a racist… Glass houses, stones, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/616 "2021-08-17T17:14:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why is that a “consequence”? Do you think those being pitted care? If no one cares about being pitted, fantastic - can we stop talking about getting rid of the Pit, then? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/617 "2021-08-17T18:12:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The mods definitely do not agree with me on what is and isn’t racist. Exactly. > [@MrDibble](#): > > But I don’t _want_ to say the post is racist. I _want_ to say the poster is. Do you know how that sounds? > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m not going to relitigate that thread again, but yes, the poster in question definitely did. They may have expressed regret that some kids had to die for it, but the idea of destroying everything that was Native culture? They were all for it. That is not true. > [@Superdude](#): > > If you don’t think that the people being Pitted care about being Pitted, then why do you care so much that you want that forum eliminated? Because it makes the board look bad, being plagued by a bunch of internet bullies. > [@ParallelLines](#): > > I am saying that if someone lies (and repeating for the umpteenth time something that has been factually disproven is a lie even if they believe it) you can and should be able to call them a liar without it being considered an insult in all forums, right there in the thread, exactly as you say How do you know it is a lie? Let us assume the post contains a point that is demonstrably untrue. Perhaps the poster believes it sincerely. Perhaps the poster is simply mistaken. How did you read the posters mind and decide the poster is deliberately lying? > [@Babale](#): > > …said the guy who derails every thread where the term “developing countries” is mentioned by accusing the person who said it as a racist… I have never said that, and that would be quickly modded. I have said “that _post_ sounds pretty racist” on occasion. Posters can honestly say something that is racist without _being a_ racist. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/618 "2021-08-17T18:15:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Exactly. And the mods are always right, right? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Do you know how that sounds? Exactly like I intended? Wait, am I supposed to be embarrassed that I don’t want to hide behind some ridiculous fiction that only posts can be racist? > [@DrDeth](#): > > That is not true. Yes, it is. But that’s the last I’m going to post about that thread here. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/619 "2021-08-17T18:25:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > {…} Because it makes the board look bad, being plagued by a bunch of internet bullies. {…} Quick show of hands. Who here has started a thread to bully another poster? I haven’t started even one Pit thread! ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/620 "2021-08-17T19:00:31Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Czarcasm, above, suggested that reporting to the Mods may be adequate, but others have already posited several problems with that proposal earlier in this thread. Reporting to mods might be adequate if mods were always impartial and consistent. There may be differing views on whether or not that’s the case here at SDMB. Or in the Pit. There’s a reason judges are expected to recuse themselves in any matter in which they even _appear_ to have a stake. Just the _appearance_ requires recusal. So if a mod buts heads with a poster in the Pit (even when that mod is posting just as a poster), especially in the Pit, where tempers can run high, and then makes a ruling (or does nothing in response to reports), there can be the _appearance_ that the mod was not being impartial. Sure, appearances can be deceiving, and the apparent lack of impartiality may or may not be the case. But there’s a valid point for consideration there. Can mods actually mod the threads, and the posters, they’re arguing in, and with? Especially in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/621 "2021-08-17T19:05:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one “cheered it on”. That is not true. > > _Everyone_ in that thread was concerned about the situation. No one said anything close to “Yeah, that’s greta all those kids were buried in unmarked graves”. @MrDibble didn’t say anyone was cheering on the unmarked graves (though there were posts claiming that was just normal procedure.) MrDibble said someone was cheering on First Nations genocide; by which I presume cultural genocide is meant. That’s not the same statement. And this sort of confusion of specific means with overall ends is one reason why ‘just report it to the moderators’ doesn’t always work. > [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > If someone makes the same debunked argument again and again in multiple threads, you should be able to call them out as a liar, or bigot, or whatever their behavior is. > > Why do you need to use those terms? Why not just call out the behavior right there when they make the post? Because, as has been said repeatedly, outside the Pit that’s currently against the rules. > [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > I’m not going to relitigate that thread again, but yes, the poster in question definitely did. They may have expressed regret that some kids had to die for it, but the idea of destroying everything that was Native culture? They were all for it. > > That is not true. It is most definitely true. > [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > I am saying that if someone lies (and repeating for the umpteenth time something that has been factually disproven is a lie even if they believe it) you can and should be able to call them a liar without it being considered an insult in all forums, right there in the thread, exactly as you say > > How do you know it is a lie? Let us assume the post contains a point that is demonstrably untrue. Perhaps the poster believes it sincerely. Perhaps the poster is simply mistaken. How did you read the posters mind and decide the poster is deliberately lying? Because, as was posited in the post you quoted when replying, they’re repeating for the umpteenth time something that has been factually disproven. Any particular such statement might be a mistake, or the result of having been handed false information. It’s the umpteen repetitions, despite having been repeatedly given correct information and not having effectively refuted that information, that mean it must be a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/622 "2021-08-17T19:59:15Z")
Since the topic is racism, I think that one of the problems the left has in communicating with the right is that many on the left have spent large amounts of time thinking about racism and other isms, breaking it down into categories, looking for ‘hidden’ racism and ‘dog whistles’, and in general are constantly looking to find it. In the meantime, people who just aren’t interested in the same thing blunder along and say things that the left has deemed ‘racist’, and have no clue. Then they get called racist and get very angry about it, because they don’t feel that they are. This is compounded by the left in general weaponizing accusations of racism, sexism, etc. as a politicial tool. Therefore, people on the right often don’t take the accusations seriously, which the left sees as an even bigger example of racism. These are category errors. If you are a carefully calibrated anti-racist, your perception of what is and isn’t racist is likely to be very different than someone who simply hasn’t spent as much time thinking about it. So what’s ‘obvious’ racism to someone who thinks about this stuff all day is likely to be perceived very differently by those who don’t, even if their hearts are in the right place. So accusations of racism shoild be used sparingly and only against those who are espousing explicitly racist and harmful ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/623 "2021-08-17T20:21:17Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So accusations of racism shoild be used sparingly and only against those who are espousing explicitly racist and harmful ideas. So as long as racists apply the thinnest veneer of plausible deniability to their statements, they should never be called out for them? Interesting. But I do note that the right (since we’re speaking in global terms) do seem to be far more concerned with _accusations_ of racism, sexism etc than they are about _actual_ racism, sexism, etc. One might even suspect that certain people who are well aware that they are engaged in those sorts of reprehensible behavior (though they might deny it strenuously in public) are keenly focused on this in order to prevent their critics from pointing that behavior out. Which brings us right back to the topic of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/624 "2021-08-17T20:33:29Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > …many on the left have spent large amounts of time thinking about racism and other isms, breaking it down into categories, looking for ‘hidden’ racism and ‘dog whistles’, and in general are constantly looking to find it. > > In the meantime, people who just aren’t interested in the same thing blunder along and say things that the left has deemed ‘racist’, and have no clue. Then they get called racist and get very angry about it, because they don’t feel that they are. This is a fair analysis and I agree (but might quibble with “constantly looking for it.” I see it, I don’t look for it). > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This is compounded by the left in general weaponizing accusations of racism, sexism, etc. as a politicial tool. You start to lose me here. Consider for a minute that the “left” might not be using accusations of racism as a political weapon, and instead actually cares about racism and wants people to stop. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So accusations of racism shoild be used sparingly and only against those who are espousing explicitly racist and harmful ideas. And we’re off the rails here. Why on earth do we need to stop calling out racism in cases where the other person doesn’t think they are being racist? Isn’t it _most_ important to call out in those cases, so the accused has the opportunity to reconsider what they say and learn from it? You seem to be coming from a place where the entire reason to call out racism is to insult or attack the other person. That is just flat out wrong. We call it out because _we want it to stop_. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/625 "2021-08-17T20:50:37Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > You start to lose me here. Consider for a minute that the “left” might not be using accusations of racism as a political weapon, and instead actually cares about racism and wants people to stop. Have you considered that the left is not a monolith, and both can be true of different people at different times? > [@TroutMan](#): > > And we’re off the rails here. Why on earth do we need to stop calling out racism in cases where the other person doesn’t think they are being racist? Isn’t it _most_ important to call out in those cases, so the accused has the opportunity to reconsider what they say and learn from it? Do you want an accusation of racism to be a serious thing, implying moral turpitude, or a minor matter that people should basically shrug off? Both those things cannot be true. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/626 "2021-08-17T20:53:43Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Have you considered that the left is not a monolith, and both can be true of different people at different times? Sam\_stone referred to the left as a monolith in the comment I was responding to. Take it up with him. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Do you want an accusation of racism to be a serious thing, implying moral turpitude, or a minor matter that people should basically shrug off? Both those things cannot be true. I want it to be a serious thing, not something people shrug off. I don’t know why that was in question, but I’m glad I could clear it up for you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=32)