# How should the Pit be changed, if at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 19, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859 "2021-07-19T23:19:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/647 "2021-08-17T22:16:11Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > No, it is not inconsistent. If I tell you, “don’t walk too close to the edge, it might crumble and you’ll fall,” that is serious - I want you to pay attention and not shrug it off. But it is in no way insulting. Come on, that is not at all comparable. No one thinks walking too close to the edge makes someone a bad person. It’s more like accusing them of a crime, or of cheating on their spouse. You wouldn’t expect someone accused of those things not to feel insulted, would you? > [@TroutMan](#): > > If I tell you that your comment is racist, I want you to seriously consider that, and maybe change your behavior. If I call (generic) you a racist, I want you to seriously consider that you are showing a pattern of such racist comments. Ideally, you wouldn’t take it as an insult, but it’s on you if you do. And what if this person considers it, and still disagrees? Most people are inclined to trust their own judgement over others’, after all. We already have an example of such disagreement in this thread - according to MrDibble, the mods disagreed with him about some comments he reported. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/648 "2021-08-17T22:19:52Z")
When someone tells you the thing you just said makes you sound like you’re a racist and your reaction is to feel insulted . . . you just might be a racist. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/649 "2021-08-17T22:29:16Z")
No, you just might be human. Who the fuck doesn’t feel insulted at being accused of something horrible? If someone told you sound like an idiot, wouldn’t you feel insulted? Yet that isn’t nearly as bad. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/650 "2021-08-17T22:36:35Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If someone told you sound like an idiot, wouldn’t you feel insulted? Yet that isn’t nearly as bad. I think you’ve lost track of the point. The point I was making is that I make accusations of racism to encourage introspection and a change in behavior, not to be insulting. “Idiot” has no purpose but to be insulting, so you’re talking about something completely different now. > [@DemonTree](#): > > And what if this person considers it, and still disagrees? Yes, what if? Sounds like a potentially fruitful discussion could follow, if you are willing to consider it and not jump to “I’m insulted!” immediately. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/651 "2021-08-17T22:37:53Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > {…} If someone told you sound like an idiot, wouldn’t you feel insulted? Yet that isn’t nearly as bad. Yes, because I choose to be a bigot and can change that, while I can do little about being an idiot. Ninja’d! ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/652 "2021-08-17T22:38:51Z")
I agree that most people are going to react badly to such an accusation, and that it is generally preferable to say “that statement sounds racist” rather than “you sound like a racist”. It’s a subtle distinction, though, so I don’t think a policy that pretends there’s a vast difference between them and that a reasonable person would be angered by one but completely OK with the other is useful. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/653 "2021-08-17T22:46:29Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I think you’ve lost track of the point. The point I was making is that I make accusations of racism to encourage introspection and a change in behavior, not to be insulting. “Idiot” has no purpose but to be insulting, so you’re talking about something completely different now. But in the Pit, insults aren’t only used when fighting for altruistic causes. Anyone can call anyone an idiot (or lots of other things) for almost anything. I recall someone insulting a member who they thought started too many simple threads by saying something like “He’s ruining this place by starting threads asking stupid stuff like ‘Why is there corn in shit?’”. (he hadn’t actually created that thread) The sense that I get is that as long as the pitter is sincere in their pitting of another member, pretty much anyone can be pitted for just about anything. If someone is upset that Soandso did X, then someone else can pit Soandso for doing X. I don’t think there’s any requirement that X be something that is socially offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/654 "2021-08-17T22:47:52Z")
The thing is, they want to keep being able to say racist things AND avoid any criticism about it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/655 "2021-08-17T22:48:49Z")
Bing-fuckin’-go! ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/656 "2021-08-17T22:50:40Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > But in the Pit, insults aren’t only used when fighting for altruistic causes. Anyone can call anyone an idiot (or lots of other things) for almost anything. You’re right, and I’m sure I have posts in the Pit that were intended to be insulting. But this long tangent started with discussions of accusations of racism, and how it’s unfortunate that it must be considered an insult. I’m speaking specifically about that, not the Pit as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/657 "2021-08-17T23:03:14Z")
People just don’t understand how important it is to have a cool, polite, and logical debate on whether Black people are inferior because of genes or the existence of welfare. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/658 "2021-08-17T23:09:21Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I think you’ve lost track of the point. The point I was making is that I make accusations of racism to encourage introspection and a change in behavior, not to be insulting. The point I am making is that your expectations of what people should find insulting are entirely unreasonable. > [@TroutMan](#): > > “Idiot” has no purpose but to be insulting, so you’re talking about something completely different now. Not so. Perhaps you believe this person may no longer sound like an idiot if they put more effort in, or educate themselves on the subject, or find better sources to follow. > [@TroutMan](#): > > Yes, what if? Sounds like a potentially fruitful discussion could follow, if you are willing to consider it and not jump to “I’m insulted!” immediately. You lob a rhetorical grenade at someone, accusing them of one of the worst things anyone can be accused of, and somehow expect this to spur a productive discussion? More productive than the discussion that is presumably already happening, in which the controversial statement appeared? The incendiary effect is exactly why I consider such accusations to be insults, in the same way as calling someone stupid or crazy is insulting, whether you believe it to be true or not. It hadn’t occured to me that anyone could seriously expect a positive response. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/659 "2021-08-17T23:17:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You lob a rhetorical grenade at someone, accusing them of one of the worst things anyone can be accused of, and somehow expect this to spur a productive discussion? Well, at least I’ve learned not to expect a productive discussion with you. I retain hope for others. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/660 "2021-08-18T00:51:57Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Do you want an accusation of racism to be a serious thing, implying moral turpitude, or a minor matter that people should basically shrug off? Both those things cannot be true. Of course they can. An accusation of committing accidental and/or unthinking racism does not imply moral turpitude. One shouldn’t shrug it off in the sense of paying no attention to it – one should consider it, think about it, and probably (unless the accuser is entirely off the wall) stop doing it. But one should shrug off any sense of insult, yes. An accusation of being deliberately racist is an accusation of moral turpitude, yes. (Which is not a reason we should be unable to make it; at least in the Pit.) Determinedly ignoring repeated information from multiple others that one’s statements and/or behavior are racist takes the behavior out of the category of accidental and/or unthinking. If on considering the matter and investigating information and explanations one thinks the accusation is unfounded, reasonable discussions can be had. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If I say that a big part of the problem in the Black community in inner cities is that they have adopted values and behaviours that don’t work for them (perhaps because we built the incentives that caused it), that could be an honest belief with the intent of trying to help those communities, but that still won’t stop someone from accusing me of racism, because maybe in their social circles it’s accepted that questioning ANY reasons for Black under-performance other than ‘structural racism’ or ‘white privilege’ is evidence of racist thinking That’s not generally what I’m seeing. What I see, most of the time, isn’t people saying “the Black community in inner cities” (presumably, in the USA and maybe similar countries) but saying “Black culture”. As if there were only one culture that involved all Black people. And what I see in reply to it, at least here, isn’t people objecting only on the grounds they think any explanation of “under-performance” is racist; but people objecting on the grounds that there’s no such thing as “Black culture” in that sense; and/or on the grounds that culture “in the Black community in inner cities” isn’t as being described – often with cites; and/or on the grounds that to the extent there are such cultural influences, as you yourself say, “we built the incentives that caused it”. (Which, although you said it yourself, is what the CRT you object to so vehemently is saying.) > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I was taken to task some time ago for using the word ‘Democrat’ instead of ‘Democratic’ (as in, ‘The Democrat Party’) I totally didn’t get it, and neither did lots of people. We split down the middle between people who said, "oh yeah, that’s an obvious slur’, and half who responded essentually ‘huh?’ Apparently, ‘Democrat’ is used by some to mean ‘DemocRAT’ or something. But only a portion of the members even knew that was a thing, while others were bewildered. But it was assumed that since I am on the ‘right’ I intended it as a malicious slur. If you insist on continuing to use it after being informed that it’s used as a slur, then I’m likely to assume that you mean it as a slur. But since instead you’re saying: > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I did change the way I reference Democrats after that, though, because once I knew it bothered people I didn’t want to be a jerk. I’ve got no problem at all believing that you didn’t know it before. I’m pretty far left, and I didn’t know it before. And that’s exactly the response most people are looking for, when they point out that something reads as racist, or otherwise bigoted, to them. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > one of the small benefits of having lived through Newt Gingrich reign as enfant terrible of the House is knowing that piece of history. I lived through it too; and I still didn’t know anything about “Democrat” as an insult until I saw it recently discussed on these boards. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I agree that most people are going to react badly to such an accusation, and that it is generally preferable to say “that statement sounds racist” rather than “you sound like a racist”. It’s a subtle distinction, though And when people do carefully try to make it, the distinction often seems to be ignored; the attitude instead often seems to be that mentioning racism is an insult in itself. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/661 "2021-08-18T01:04:56Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > {…} I lived through it too; and I still didn’t know anything about “Democrat” as an insult until I saw it recently discussed on these boards. {…} To be clear, “lived through it” as in was a C-SPAN junkie and could identify all the active members of the House by voice alone during Gingrich’s heyday. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/662 "2021-08-18T01:07:49Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > To be clear, “lived through it” as in was a C-SPAN junkie and could identify all the active members of the House by voice alone during Gingrich’s heyday. OK. But it’s unreasonable to expect that of everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/663 "2021-08-18T01:16:03Z")
No. But when someone says, lets say, the Union wore grey and the Confederates wore Blue and someone with historical knowledge sets them straight they should admit they didn’t know what the fuck they were talking about and accept the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/664 "2021-08-18T01:53:24Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > But there’s a valid point for consideration there. Can mods actually mod the threads, and the posters, they’re arguing in, and with? Especially in the Pit. I would argue “No” and that mods shouldn’t be allowed to participate in the Pit as posters in threads attacking specific posters _at all_. And to put something in perspective: When was the last time someone was given a warning or ban or piled on in the pit for pushing an extremely left-wing viewpoint? > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > No. But when someone says, lets say, the Union wore grey and the Confederates wore Blue and someone with historical knowledge sets them straight they should admit they didn’t know what the fuck they were talking about and accept the correction. Most people would, unless the corrector is being an absolute dick about it. For example, saying “You might have that around the wrong way - the Union wore Blue and the Confederacy wore grey; although they both had similar equipment in many other areas and the Confederacy didn’t always have a standard uniform the way the Union did” corrects the person _and_ doesn’t make them feel like a moron, providing a plausible explanation for their confusion and leading to a much more productive outcome all round. Telling them “You idiot, everyone knows the Union wore blue and the Confederates wore grey, haven’t you ever seen a Civil War painting or re-enactment or something in movies or TV? Educate yourself!” is going to piss them off, get them offside, _and_ make them think you and everyone they perceive as associated with your viewpoint are assholes they don’t want to listen to. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/665 "2021-08-18T01:58:09Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And what I see in reply to it, at least here, isn’t people objecting only on the grounds they think any explanation of “under-performance” is racist; but people objecting on the grounds that there’s no such thing as “Black culture” in that sense; and/or on the grounds that culture “in the Black community in inner cities” isn’t as being described – often with cites; and/or on the grounds that to the extent there are such cultural influences, as you yourself say, “we built the incentives that caused it”. (Which, although you said it yourself, is what the CRT you object to so vehemently is saying.) I suspect that we would have very different view of what’s going on and why, and how those incentives are in place. I don’t believe it has anything to do with the sort of nebulous ‘structural racism’ or ‘White Supremacy’, but with very specific policy choices made over the years by politiicans in Washington and in the big cities. I’d start a thread on it, but I think it would become a train wreck. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If you insist on continuing to use it after being informed that it’s used as a slur, then I’m likely to assume that you mean it as a slur. What if someone tells you something is offensive and you think it’s ridiculous? The ‘Democrat/Democratic’ thing struck me as being very thin-skinned, and possibly being employed as a verbal weapon to beat up the other side. But I erred on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt. I would not necessarily fault aomeone for saying, ‘Screw that - I’m not playing this game of hypersensitivity to innocuous words and being forced to constantly parse what I write because my opponent doesn’t like it’ if I agreed that it was trivial. I just happened to fall on the other side of that line because I try to give the benefit of the doubt. As an example on the other side, we endured the Tea Party being called ‘Tea Baggers’ for years on this board even after many people said it was offensive to them, on a thin-reed justification that some clueless tea party group somewhere used the term for a few days before being informed of its sexual connotation, and therefore no one had a right to complain about it. That was certainly a case where people on this board _didn’t_ change their behaviour when they were infprmed that it was offensive - and it was apparently fine to do so. And to a religious Tea Partier, ‘Tea Bagger’ is far more offensive and graphic than ‘Democrat’ is to a…Democrat. I think avoiding unnecessary offense is a moral position to take, so I accepted the claim that ‘Democrat’ could be offensive in some contexts and stopped using it. But then, I would never have called someone a ‘Tea Bagger’ either, even if I hated the Tea Party. So the selective and hypocritical outrage over word choices can be tedious and I understand when some people push back,against it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/666 "2021-08-18T02:44:57Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > When was the last time someone was given a warning or ban or piled on in the pit for pushing an extremely left-wing viewpoint? Huey Freeman certainly pushed a left-wing view and got thoroughly criticized for how he presented it. Then there are the posters who insist they’re leftists but say some really rotten shit and get roundly trounced for it. You gotta ask, are things like transphobia and paternalistic racism and leering misogyny inherently conservative in an all-true-Scotsmen way? Or is it possible that people on the left can be afflicted with (and inflict on others) nasty bigoted ideas, and can be criticized for them just like people on the right? Of course, you’re talking specifically about left-wing **views** , so I’d say the only real extreme left-wing views around here come from asahi, who catches a ton of shit for them in the Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=34)