# How should the Pit be changed, if at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 19, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859 "2021-07-19T23:19:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/141 "2021-07-21T19:17:26Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > You mean you didn’t personally speak with all 7.85 billion people in the world to see if they ever posted on SDMB and were driven away? Please do your research before making claims in the future. He’s the Carlisle and he speaks for the newbies. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/142 "2021-07-21T19:41:26Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > If a poster believes those two things, you believe that poster should not be a member of this board? No. I’d go into more detail, but as the mod note above your post shows, I’m not allowed to discuss that here. WHICH IS WHY A PIT IS NEEDED. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/143 "2021-07-21T20:29:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > WHICH IS WHY A PIT IS NEEDED. Because it’s just impossible to discuss such topics without resorting to character assassination and pile-ons, amirite? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/144 "2021-07-21T20:33:47Z")
Nothing to do with character assassination of pile-ons, everything to do with the overly restrictive rules on what you can and cannot say about other posters and their pattern of behavior outside of the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/145 "2021-07-21T20:37:38Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Is “spreading misinformation” (misinformation being solely defined by me) the new reason to silence people? That is shocking in a society which values free speech. On a discussion board dedicated to fighting ignorance, I would fucking HOPE we don’t allow spreading misinformation. Why the hell are we here, otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/146 "2021-07-21T21:17:31Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > On a discussion board dedicated to fighting ignorance, I would fucking HOPE we don’t allow spreading misinformation. Why the hell are we here, otherwise? You let people say what they want, then you use your rapier-like debating skills to show everyone why the informatiin is wrong. The answer to bad speecb is good speech, not silencing people. We in the west used to understand this to our core. " I disagree with everything you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Apparently not so much anymore. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/147 "2021-07-21T21:21:47Z")
I disagree with this. If somebody unknowingly says something that is wrong, then yes you gently correct and educate them. But, if somebody is intentionally posting things they know to be false- I would say they have no place on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/148 "2021-07-21T21:23:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You let people say what they want, then you use your rapier-like debating skills to show everyone why the informatiin is wrong. > > The answer to bad speecb is good speech, not silencing people. There’s a reason [this list](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rules-for-great-debates-and-elections-january-2020/845726) exists. > **Thrice Told Tales are off limits.** Over the last 20 years, posters in Great Debates and Politics and Elections have debated pretty much everything. As such, there are some contentious issues about which we are tired of hearing. We just don’t want to go around and around about these things any more. In general, we’re just tired of these subjects. It may, however, be that there’s something new under the sun. Posters may start threads on these subjects only with prior approval of a Great Debates or Politics and Elections moderator. If you think you’ve got a new angle on something we’ve discussed a million times and found unpleasant, please feel free to make your case. Getting one approved is a very heavy lift, however. > > **Scientific racism** or any particular argument about why any particular group of humans is inherently better than any other group > > **Holocaust Denial**. Seriously, guys. If someone wants to seriously debate whether the holocaust occurred, we can safely say they’re not someone we want here > > **Encouraging discrimination** against any minority groups. This can include race, gender, sexual orientation or any other group into which a person might belong. Such depresses debate and discussion and in contrary to the goals of Great Debates and Elections > > **Men’s Rights Advocacy**. This can include threads about how men are somehow disadvantaged in society, women are somehow genetically inferior or have a predisposition toward specific gender roles and other threads about the ways in which men are somehow naturally entitled to be in charge > > **9/11 Truthers**. This includes any information about how either 9/11 didn’t happen, it was a false flag operation by the government or any other idea that denies the events of that day. > > **Climate Change Denialism**. We believe the science. While there is room to debate ways to deal with climate change, the existence of such is an observed fact. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/149 "2021-07-21T21:27:36Z")
That lists leaves plenty of room though for stupidity to be posted and hopefully thoroughly refuted. So what Sam posted is also an important part of GD. The list exists as some subjects were just plain tired. The list is a pretty good one but far from all encompassing. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/150 "2021-07-21T21:49:59Z")
My point is that GD has been silencing some people for at least 18 months. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/151 "2021-07-21T23:06:54Z")
Hmm, interesting. A compromise between both sides. I like #3, but #2 works also. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Opening threads in ATMB would do the trick. You cannot call the poster a motherfucker. You simply start a thread and say “I believe Poster X is trolling” and cite several examples as to why you believe that way. Poster X is free to defend himself without getting flamed. I think it would be better to stick with “these posts by Poster xxxx show trolling to me”. I want to see the _posts_, not just “Poster xxxx is a troll.” But yeah, this compromise, while by no means what I want as a end product, would show some results, i think. > [@Babale](#): > > No, but if posters mostly post once or twice and disappear into the ether anyways, YOU HAVE SHOWN NO EVIDENCE OF POSTERS BEING DRIVEN AWAY. Show me your list of trolls found by the Pit which were NOT reported to the Mods. > [@DocCathode](#): > > But, if somebody is intentionally posting things they know to be false- I would say they have no place on the SDMB. How do _you_ **know**? I give people the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/152 "2021-07-21T23:33:18Z")
For one, do they boast of coming from a site known for spreading misinformation? BTW You still haven’t answered my earlier question- Exactly what point were you trying to make when you Pitted me? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/153 "2021-07-21T23:51:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > For one, do they boast of coming from a site known for spreading misinformation? It is to laugh. That has been disproven. And even so, they can be educated. My point was that people who hate turnips also hate rutabagas, of course, what else? 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/154 "2021-07-21T23:57:10Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Exactly what point were you trying to make when you Pitted me? Nobody knows. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/155 "2021-07-21T23:59:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > My point was that people who hate turnips also hate rutabagas, of course, what else? No, seriously -what point were you trying to prove when you Pitted me? ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2021, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/156 "2021-07-22T00:02:00Z")
At the risk of junior modding, can we not sidetrack this thread with rehashing unrelated drama and get it closed like all the others on this topic, please? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2021, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/157 "2021-07-22T00:05:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That has been disproven No, it really has not. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2021, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/158 "2021-07-22T01:04:08Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > At the risk of junior modding, can we not sidetrack this thread with rehashing unrelated drama and get it closed like all the others on this topic, please? Thanks. Yeah, this is good advice. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2021, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/159 "2021-07-22T02:46:31Z")
I went back to the start of the current Troll R US thread, and did a tally for the 1st 500 posts (from last summer). Note in some cases the R US post failed to link to the thread/post and/or didn’t specify the exact handle-was forced to throw those out (1 fit that description). In some cases their failure to come up on search indicated that they were cornfielded. :Long-term posters who are still active: 8 [**Ashtura** , **Whack-A-Mole** , **Velocity** , **Octopus** , **jtur88** , **JohnT** , **Omar Little** , **Kearsen1**] Bannees: 23 [incl. 11 who were cornfielded] No longer active: 8. But almost all of these were long-term Dopers, around for at least a year before they got called out, most of which didn’t bail on the board soon after their Pitting. I’ll list them in case anyone wants to examine them more closely: **jim23** **YWTF** **Pavelb1** [the only newbie when he got pitted then bailed soon after, BUT someone recognized the secondary name in his profile as that of a long-term Doper from when we ran vBulletin) **duffer** **putnam6** **SayTwo** **agzem** **Harrington** You can also examine why they were being called out, if you like: seemed to me like in almost all cases the pitting was warranted-only **jim23** seemed like an unfair case, just a brief accusation of being a sock, then no more attention whatsoever. BUT: the kicker is that I could find no newbies who were Pitted there, then shaped up (as in were not pitted anymore from then on) and became a frequent and useful contributors to the board. The 8 in category one were typically repeat offenders, with many people in the R US thread calling them out numerous times over the lifespan of the thread. If anyone wants to continue from post #501 knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2021, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/160 "2021-07-22T03:26:57Z")
Thank you for taking the time to do that (definitely exhausting) research. It’s nice to have numbers, and I would say 500 posts is a representative sample. Sure, we could do more, but I think given the percentages of the poll, it would have to be the anti-pit side to make their case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859.md?page=9)