# How should the US respond to Shakil Afridi sentencing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363 "2012-05-28T19:07:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/21 "2012-05-29T01:18:04Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Right, but this still begs the question: did he actually violate Pakistani law in helping the US? Did Pakistani law require him to inform his own government if he was going to aid a foreign government carry out an assassination on Pakistani soil. > > Similarly, the United States might be “publicly onboard with” capturing IRA terrorists or Hamas terrorists, but that doesn’t mean that it would be lawful for an American citizen to assist a British SAS troop or a Mossad squad (respectively) in the assassination of such people within American territory. Oh I don’t disagree on those points. Another point. It was not a planned assasination. At least I never got that impression. It was a capture gone bad (well good actually IMO). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/22 "2012-05-29T01:28:18Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > It’s this aspect that makes me understand Pakistan’s desire to punish this guy. > > If it had just been because he had helped us get OBL, I would have thought Pakistan were just being a bunch of two-timing dicks. But as it stands now, we’re already killing people in their border area, which they’re understandably pissed about but can’t really do anything about, and diseases like polio remain a problem there in large part because those people don’t really trust western aid workers. So for this Afridi guy to undermine Pakistan’s interest in vaccinating these people solely to help us catch one guy does seem like a case of misplaced loyalties. > > I read someone somewhere who drew an analogy with America’s behavior during the Troubles. While the British were our ally, we had domestic political reasons for not completely helping them fight the IRA. So if we caught a suspected IRA terrorist in the US, we wouldn’t extradite him, but the FBI would help the British outside of the US. So I guess I’m not nearly as disgruntled with Pakistan as most people in our government seem to be. I’m very disgruntled with Pakistan but I also understand why they have a beef with us over some things. What it all comes down to though is Pakistan is a **terrible** ally, they have been for a long time. In truth we didn’t start doing really shitty things to them in this alliance until we invaded Afghanistan, and even then we didn’t really start doing things like violating Pakistani air space and etc until relatively late in that conflict. On the flip side, Pakistan has been taking billions from us for many years and working against our interests almost as much as our outright enemies like North Korea and Iran have. It just makes no sense. Christopher Hitchens and me didn’t see eye to eye on much of anything, but he was consistently right about the American relationship with Pakistan. We were supporting very bad people for **no gain** , and in fact they worked against our interests more often than not. We should end all support of Pakistan and develop closer ties with India, which while not a perfectly functioning democracy is a much more natural ally of America than Pakistan has ever been. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/23 "2012-05-29T02:55:36Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > Look, Pakistan has to keep up appearances in front of the other Islamic states or else it’ll be seen as weak. Apparently weak countries tend to get overrun or have coups. That is not the problem here. The Pakistani military has run the country for decades and they’re not going anywhere. Aside from the “treason” issue, they’re punishing Afridi harshly because they are very pissed off and embarrassed. The discovery that Bin Laden was hiding in a major military town implies very strongly that Pakistani intelligence knew where he was, and they’re very unhappy that the rest of the world knows about it. That’s why their response to the raid has been cutting cooperation with the U.S. and imprisoning this guy. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > On the flip side, Pakistan has been taking billions from us for many years and working against our interests almost as much as our outright enemies like North Korea and Iran have. It just makes no sense. Christopher Hitchens and me didn’t see eye to eye on much of anything, but he was consistently right about the American relationship with Pakistan. We were supporting very bad people for **no gain** , and in fact they worked against our interests more often than not. Yeah, I’ve revisited his writing lately (and I suspect it shows in more than a few of my recent posts) and he was right about this one. I’ve argued for cooperating with Pakistan to “contain” the country, but at this point I think the truth is that the ISI and military have been playing the U.S. for saps for years. They know what buttons to push and they manage to get more and more aid in return for being almost the worst ally anybody could imagine; meanwhile India has to watch this go on and on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/24 "2012-05-29T02:58:10Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Has a US citizen ever been found guilty of conspiring with an government allied to the USA? I recall a story back in the 1980s, I think it was, about a couple of Jewish-Americans convicted of spying for Israel. They were imprisoned, not deported. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/25 "2012-05-29T04:01:27Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > What was fake about it? Did his organization not actually give real vaccines? It was Hep B vaccine, which requires three shots. The idea was to give shots to the local kids and test the DNA from the needles to see if the Bin Laden family was in the area. They only gave one shot before moving on. I don’t know if only giving one shot put their health in danger, but it was a violation of their trust, and distrust is apparently the main obstacle hindering vaccination efforts in that part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/26 "2012-05-29T13:01:05Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > That’s the first example i was going to use, although i agree that it can’t be directly compared to the Afridi case. Pollard was convicted of passing classified US information on to the Israelis. > > But whether there has been a comparable case in the past is less important, in my opinion, that what the law would actually allow or require. That is, what would happen, under the law, if a US citizen aided a friendly foreign government in carrying out a covert operation, culminating in an assassination on American soil? > > **Mosier** suggests deportation, but what if the person is a natural-born citizen with no foreign citizenship? Is there a legal mechanism for booting that person out of the country? Does this sort of assistance rise to the level of treason, if you’re aiding an official ally rather than an enemy? Would it simply fall under state-level laws associated with homicide and conspiracy to commit murder? > > I don’t know the answer to these questions, but i’d be rather surprised if the US government were inclined to let the American conspirator simply walk away. There are both federal laws and UCMJ provisions for espionage, treason, and spying that may apply, in addition to whatever other criminal charges might apply. A US citizen would not normally be deported. I can’t think of a case in the history of spying and espionage where that has happened, though I suppose if someone had dual citizenship it may be possible. This might be helpful, as would the entry on “espionage”, which has other links like the Espionage Act of 1917: [United States government security breaches - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government_security_breaches) If you highlight all instances of “espionage” you can see it is a very common charge. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/27 "2012-05-29T14:53:23Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > It was Hep B vaccine, which requires three shots. The idea was to give shots to the local kids and test the DNA from the needles to see if the Bin Laden family was in the area. They only gave one shot before moving on. > > I don’t know if only giving one shot put their health in danger, but it was a violation of their trust, and distrust is apparently the main obstacle hindering vaccination efforts in that part of the world. Just to add more detail, the Hep B vaccine requires three rounds of shots. 1st shot, 2nd shot a month later, 3rd shot 6 months after the 2nd shot. So a very lengthy procedure. Dr. Shakil Afridi’s program only gave the 1st shot, then moved on. The 1st shot was “real”, but the vaccine is not effective unless all three rounds are given. I can’t understand why they wouldn’t just keep the program going (with a different doctor if need be). **MODIDALIZE** , I very much agree with your last sentence. From what I can tell, he was not charged with running a fake vaccine program, or privacy violations (from collecting DNA w/o consent). He was charged/sentenced for violating four separate laws (10year sentence+10+10+3) that basically equate to helping the US violate Pakistan’s sovereignty from the bin laden raid. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/28 "2012-05-30T14:12:06Z")
It turns out, he was not jailed for helping the CIA. See [Washington Post (from AP)](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/verdict-against-pakistani-who-helped-track-bin-laden-guilty-of-militancy-not-cia-links/2012/05/30/gJQAbPir0U_story.html) article: > [@](#): > > A Pakistan doctor who assisted the CIA in tracking down Osama bin Laden was sentenced to 33 years in prison for **conspiring with an Islamist militant commander** (commander Mangal Bagh), a verdict that could make it more difficult for Washington to argue for his release. > > The judgment against Shakil Afridi debunked the widely held assumption that he had been convicted for his involvement with the [CIA]. Checkmate Pakistan, it appears. What does this change? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/29 "2012-05-30T14:38:34Z")
^ Thats just been reported _now_? ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/30 "2012-05-30T14:57:18Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > ^ > Thats just been reported _now_? Yes. The AP got a copy of the judgment/verdict and reported the findings today. The jurisdiction in which Shakil Afridi was tried holds trials in secret and he is not allowed a lawyer, so it would be difficult to know for sure without the judgment or someone who was present during the trial. Obviously, the timing suggested it was related to the bin laden raid (and of course it is, just not technically anymore). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/31 "2012-05-30T14:57:54Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Checkmate Pakistan, it appears. What does this change? That depends. Is it the least bit credible? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/32 "2012-05-30T17:08:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That depends. Is it the least bit credible? Here is the actual [judgement](http://dawncompk.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/afridi-ruling.jpg). [QUOTE=CoolHandCox] T **he jurisdiction in which Shakil Afridi was tried holds trials in secret and he is not allowed a lawyer** , so it would be difficult to know for sure without the judgment or someone who was present during the trial. Obviously, the timing suggested it was related to the bin laden raid (and of course it is, just not technically anymore). [/QUOTE] Niether is true. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/33 "2012-05-30T17:25:28Z")
I assume you’re our only lawyer in Pakistan, **AK84**. What’s your view on this case? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/34 "2012-05-30T17:41:33Z")
What sort of view. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/35 "2012-05-30T17:55:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > What sort of view. Do you think this is being handled properly? Is he being punished for collaboration with the U.S. or with this militant, and was the trial on the level? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/36 "2012-05-30T18:13:56Z")
1. From what I can see from the judgement, his trial was unremarkable in the technical sense. His crimes were committed in that area and the District Magistrate has jurisdiction. As for the correctness of the verdict, well I have not seen the Court record (transcripts of evidence, exhibits etc) which would lead to an informed opinion and those are not likely to be forthcoming for some time as they are undoubtedly being prepped by the Court for the likely appeal or Judicial review. 2. I have no idea what the motivations of the prosecutors are; the Federal Government certainly would not approve of his or any public servant being in the employ of a foreign intelligence agency and that would undoubtedly have being a major consideration in the decision to try him. 3. I do not think it has been handled correctly, far to much misinformation is flying around especially at a time when attempts are being made to negotiate with NATO and ISAF as to the final settlement with respect to Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/37 "2012-05-30T18:19:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Niether is true [re: secret trials and no access to lawyer]. I got that from Pakistani newspaper articles, however, I am not familiar with the newspaper itself and its credibility. [The Express Tribune - a secretive tribal court](http://tribune.com.pk/story/385295/dr-afridis-brother-urges-chief-justice-to-intervene/) and another[article here](http://tribune.com.pk/story/385307/not-guilty-as-charged/) (“Afridi was convicted in a secret trial held by the Assistant Political Agent of the Khyber Tribal Agency. The trial was secret and, so far as I know, no lawyer appeared on behalf of Dr Afridi.”). I understood it to be an old (colonial) statute that did not provide for legal representation in that region. However, with everything being incorrect so far, this being wrong wouldn’t surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/38 "2012-05-30T18:54:52Z")
Express Tribune is not exactly known for letting the facts get in the way of a good story. And Fesial Naqvi who wrote the second article is a[corporate and commercial lawyer](http://bnrlaw.net/partners_faisal.html) and I have the greatest of respect for him. However, he is out of his depth here. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363/39 "2012-05-30T20:45:14Z")
Interesting development. [Here’s an opinion piece](http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2012/05/30/what-happened-to-the-rule-of-law-us-pakistan-and-doctor-afridi/) with some insightful perspectives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-us-respond-to-shakil-afridi-sentencing/623363.md?page=1)