# How Should We Combat Modern Racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2009, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736 "2009-09-27T08:37:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/201 "2009-10-14T15:00:02Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’ll rephrase–if it wasn’t about race, one would just think, “What a dick/asshole” when Kanye pulls a boner. The fact that someone sees Kanye West getting up on stage and being a douchebag and thinks, “What an N-Word” means they’re not just seeing him as a silly ass, the way you’d react to Paris Hilton, Tom Cruise, or Rush Limbaugh saying something mind blowingly asinine. He’s just an uppity black person, and the bigot can just add it to their list of stupid things blacks do that make racism so necessary, conveniently ignoring the boneheaded things that people of all colors do. I agree that race plays a part in it. Undoubtedly. But the problem is not just that a black person acts in a certain way, but in a way that fits with a certain stereotype. a black person could rob a bank dressed like a businessman and quietly hand the teller a note and leave with the money and not got hit with the “N” word as a descriptor. Another black person could rob a bank in a more flamboyant manner, abusing people in the process, etc., and get slapped with the word. So, while race does play a part, it is not the only ingredient. Would it be nice if the word disappeared, or that we never noticed race at all. Sure. But that ain’t happening anytime soon. Especially when we are asked to look at race in other arenas: the NAACP, affirmative action, BET, etc. I’m not saying these are bad things, only that as long as they exist a truly color blind society is an impossibility. I think Chris Rock does a valuable service in his rant, particularly to blacks; he seeks to build distinction between black people and niggers. Not one black person who is not a nigger, deserves to be painted with that ugly brush. But every single nigger, as he describes them, should be castigated by it routinely. I think the most helpful thing would be for the black community should take his lead. and they should not throw the word around in a casual, friendly, or joking manner. Let it be on par with “pedophile”, a label no one wants. But a label used when appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/202 "2009-10-14T15:15:32Z")
> [@Paleface](#): > > Speaking of things that stink, your tactic of only using half of the statement is dishonest. And to think that you could get away with it, is a commentary on you. I used your entire stupid statement, so don’t act like I cut you off in mid-sentence. The difference between > [@](#): > > I said that telling someone not to use the “N” word, was similar to telling someone to not think of the color red. What happens? The person cannot help but to think of the color red. and > [@](#): > > I said that telling someone not to use the “N” word, was similar to telling someone to not think of the color red. Changes nothing in the stupidly offensive nature of your asinine comments/use of racial slurs. It just cuts the foolishness into bite sized chunks. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/203 "2009-10-14T22:17:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree that race plays a part in it. Undoubtedly. But the problem is not just that a black person acts in a certain way, but in a way that fits with a certain stereotype. But why do those stereotypes exist in the first place? Why can White people in suits rip people off on a regular basis without having their mannerisms, style of dress, and way of doing things reflect on all the other honest White people in suits? Is it because we accept, as a predicate, that Blackness is causative of negative attributes? I think that’s clearly the implicit assumption one makes when a Black person acting a certain way is described as a nigger, rather than however a White person acting in a similar manner would be. The fact that people feel they can justifiably use a word that exists solely to dehumanize people (regardless of how they act) is really sad. > [@magellan01](#): > > Would it be nice if the word disappeared, or that we never noticed race at all. Sure. But that ain’t happening anytime soon. Especially when we are asked to look at race in other arenas: the NAACP, affirmative action, BET, etc. I’m not saying these are bad things, only that as long as they exist a truly color blind society is an impossibility. Bullshit. BET and the NAACP are not impediments to a color-blind society. The impediment is our ability to see, and our tendency to create rigid distinction based on assumptions. You could eliminate every reference to race, and people will still recognize the obvious physical differences between people. Again, please read the article I linked to in my first post. Babies, who are clearly not as bogged down by our racial baggage, make these distinctions. We cannot prevent that. What we can do is encourage sensitivity, understanding, and appreciate for our differences. That’s why groups like the NAACP are, by and large, helpful to society, since they encourage us to have a dialog about race relations. Groups like those are actually the way to get past the race issue. > [@magellan01](#): > > I think Chris Rock does a valuable service in his rant, particularly to blacks; he seeks to build distinction between black people and niggers. No, he didn’t. And thankfully, even he has recognized [that](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggas_vs._Black_People). > [@](#): > > The controversy caused by Rock’s constant use of the word nigga led him to remove the piece from his act. In a 60 Minutes interview, Rock said, “By the way, I’ve never done that joke again, ever, and I probably never will. 'Cause some people that were racist thought they had license to say nigger. So, I’m done with that routine.”[2] First off, it’s a joke. Second, there is no relevant distinction worth noting. If you think people don’t already make distinction between the uneducated and the educated, the lazy and the diligent, or the law-abiding and criminals, you are mistaken. The distinction he pointed out is already made by people everyday. The problem is that those distinctions needn’t be based on race. Race has been injected into the situation for no other reason other than to be inflammatory, or to justify preconceived notions about Black people. How can I make this more clear to you? Do you think a comedian pointing out the differences between Jews, and greedy, shifty, sneaky, cheap-ass, blood-sucking kikes was doing an important service? Or between regular gay guys, and cock sucking, sissified, limp-wristed faggots? I mean, it would be helpful so us regulars could more easily differentiate between the two, right? I can’t even count how many times I’ve been confused when I try to tell the two groups apart, and then I end up treating a regular person like a piece of shit unworthy of basic respect. Sarcasm aside, that’s a major part of the problem. Just because someone tells Taylor Swift that she sucks, or commits a crime, doesn’t mean they don’t deserve respect and consideration. Calling someone a nigger, white trash, or anything else is not consistent with that. > [@magellan01](#): > > Not one black person who is not a nigger, deserves to be painted with that ugly brush. But every single nigger, as he describes them, should be castigated by it routinely. I think the most helpful thing would be for the black community should take his lead. and they should not throw the word around in a casual, friendly, or joking manner. Let it be on par with “pedophile”, a label no one wants. But a label used when appropriate. Or racists can recognize that there are no niggers. Never have been, and never will be. Just as there are no faggots, kikes, spics, etc. They are just words used to dehumanize people you don’t like. Ways to tell them they are not worthy of your consideration, and to justify not letting them vote, get married, or fully integrate into society. You can try to pretend the word only applies to those who act a certain way, but you would have to ignore the fact that there are like several other words that could be used to describe those people that don’t have the same baggage. You would be making a decision to use a word that is neither descriptive, accurate, nor socially acceptable just because you are tying to make some perverse point. Luckily, most of us recognize that the use of those words reflects more on the speaker than the target. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/204 "2009-10-15T11:22:23Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > But why do those stereotypes exist in the first place? Why can White people in suits rip people off on a regular basis without having their mannerisms, style of dress, and way of doing things reflect on all the other honest White people in suits? Is it because we accept, as a predicate, that Blackness is causative of negative attributes? I think that’s clearly the implicit assumption one makes when a Black person acting a certain way is described as a nigger, rather than however a White person acting in a similar manner would be. The fact that people feel they can justifiably use a word that exists solely to dehumanize people (regardless of how they act) is really sad. > > Bullshit. BET and the NAACP are not impediments to a color-blind society. The impediment is our ability to see, and our tendency to create rigid distinction based on assumptions. You could eliminate every reference to race, and people will still recognize the obvious physical differences between people. Again, please read the article I linked to in my first post. Babies, who are clearly not as bogged down by our racial baggage, make these distinctions. We cannot prevent that. What we can do is encourage sensitivity, understanding, and appreciate for our differences. That’s why groups like the NAACP are, by and large, helpful to society, since they encourage us to have a dialog about race relations. Groups like those are actually the way to get past the race issue. > > No, he didn’t. And thankfully, even he has recognized [that](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggas_vs._Black_People). > > First off, it’s a joke. Second, there is no relevant distinction worth noting. If you think people don’t already make distinction between the uneducated and the educated, the lazy and the diligent, or the law-abiding and criminals, you are mistaken. The distinction he pointed out is already made by people everyday. The problem is that those distinctions needn’t be based on race. Race has been injected into the situation for no other reason other than to be inflammatory, or to justify preconceived notions about Black people. How can I make this more clear to you? Do you think a comedian pointing out the differences between Jews, and greedy, shifty, sneaky, cheap-ass, blood-sucking kikes was doing an important service? Or between regular gay guys, and cock sucking, sissified, limp-wristed faggots? I mean, it would be helpful so us regulars could more easily differentiate between the two, right? I can’t even count how many times I’ve been confused when I try to tell the two groups apart, and then I end up treating a regular person like a piece of shit unworthy of basic respect. Sarcasm aside, that’s a major part of the problem. Just because someone tells Taylor Swift that she sucks, or commits a crime, doesn’t mean they don’t deserve respect and consideration. Calling someone a nigger, white trash, or anything else is not consistent with that. > > Or racists can recognize that there are no niggers. Never have been, and never will be. Just as there are no faggots, kikes, spics, etc. They are just words used to dehumanize people you don’t like. Ways to tell them they are not worthy of your consideration, and to justify not letting them vote, get married, or fully integrate into society. > > You can try to pretend the word only applies to those who act a certain way, but you would have to ignore the fact that there are like several other words that could be used to describe those people that don’t have the same baggage. You would be making a decision to use a word that is neither descriptive, accurate, nor socially acceptable just because you are tying to make some perverse point. Luckily, most of us recognize that the use of those words reflects more on the speaker than the target. **brickbacon** you make this point more calm/articulate/better then I would ever be willing to do. Good show. ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/205 "2009-10-15T17:59:21Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I used your entire stupid statement, so don’t act like I cut you off in mid-sentence. The difference betweenand Changes nothing in the stupidly offensive nature of your asinine comments/use of racial slurs. It just cuts the foolishness into bite sized chunks. No, it does change it. It explains the “why” of it. And if you do not possess the faculties required to recognize that, then you have no credibility in assigning the perjorative “stupid” to anything you attempt to read. ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/206 "2009-10-15T18:18:16Z")
And as for combating modern racism, it is a fight that can never be won as long as racism is found where it doesn’t exist. “No Dumbass, it wasn’t because “the man” is a racist that you didn’t get the job, you didn’t get the job because you didn’t have enough sense to show up to the job interview with your pants pulled up and your hat on straight.” ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/207 "2009-10-15T18:56:03Z")
And for God’s sakes, it’s “ask”, not “aks”. Are you just incapable of the proper pronounciation? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/208 "2009-10-15T18:58:28Z")
Okay, am I the only one disturbed by the fact that a thread asking what we can do to prevent racism has become “Let’s bitch about things we hate about black people”? This whole thing smacks of, “Well, I’d LIKE to stop calling you nigger, so how about you stop acting like one, nigger?” ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/209 "2009-10-15T20:10:41Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Okay, am I the only one disturbed by the fact that a thread asking what we can do to prevent racism has become “Let’s bitch about things we hate about black people”? This whole thing smacks of, “Well, I’d LIKE to stop calling you nigger, so how about you stop acting like one, nigger?” Eh, I think everyone just left. Nobody to talk to, know what I mean? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/210 "2009-10-16T10:03:26Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Okay, am I the only one disturbed by the fact that a thread asking what we can do to prevent racism has become “Let’s bitch about things we hate about black people”? This whole thing smacks of, “Well, I’d LIKE to stop calling you nigger, so how about you stop acting like one, nigger?” More or less, a good summery of the position of a number of posters > [@Paleface](#): > > Don’t want the “N” word to be used, then don’t act like a “N”. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It really goes to what **Paleface** said above and what Bill Cosby has said as well. If you want to get ahead in a country’s society, economically or careerwise or whatever, the average person who doesn’t hit the lottery and become a movie star or recording artist, you are gonna have virtually no chance if you choose to behave in a way that “reflects negatively on your race” – and we as a country are going to get nowhere fast in terms of racism as long as making these perfectly obvious and truthful observations are regarded as racist, such as **MizTina’s** response to **Paleface’s** post seems to imply. > [@magellan01](#): > > I think Chris Rock does a valuable service in his rant, particularly to blacks; he seeks to build distinction between black people and niggers. Not one black person who is not a nigger, deserves to be painted with that ugly brush. But every single nigger, as he describes them, should be castigated by it routinely. I think the most helpful thing would be for the black community should take his lead. and they should not throw the word around in a casual, friendly, or joking manner. Let it be on par with “pedophile”, a label no one wants. But a label used when appropriate. A good number of other people didn’t weigh in on the “nigger” debate just popped in to wring their hands on “the blacks” or in the case of **Chief Pendant** their “genetic differences” (read criminal behaviours, low intelligence, high sex drive, etc). ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/211 "2009-10-16T10:18:16Z")
> [@Paleface](#): > > No, it does change it. It explains the “why” of it. And if you do not possess the faculties required to recognize that, then you have no credibility in assigning the perjorative “stupid” to anything you attempt to read. Perhaps you would like to open up a pit thread? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/212 "2009-10-16T22:02:39Z")
> [@Paleface](#): > > And for God’s sakes, it’s “ask”, not “aks”. > > Are you just incapable of the proper pronounciation? Proper pronunciation where? There are multiple dialects in England where the pronunciation is /aks/ and it was one or more of those dialects that were carried over by whites who interacted with slaves, influencing the pronunciation of the various black dialects. There are also a few speech patterns among white immigrants to the U.S. where /aks/ is the more prevalent pronunciation. Fixating on that difference, (and trying to claim that it is solely a “black” phenomenon), simply demonstrates a serious ignorance of speech patterns throughout the English speaking world while attempting to make some point about how “those people,” (but only the black ones), can’t be bothered to talk correctly. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/213 "2009-10-16T22:15:47Z")
> [@MizTina](#): > > Ok, so I asked Paleface to elaborate on what “N” behaviour entailed and did not receive an answer. I sounded a bit snarky and that was intentional, but I also had another reason for asking. > > One of my grandsons is of mixed race, one of those races being what could be described by a person of poor manners and morals as “N”. So I really want to know what I can tell this still developing 4 year old what it is that he can do that can guarantee that he will never be called a “N”. > > Because apparantly, this little fellow can forestall any racism by his actions and deeds. So please, let me know and I will let him know that you personally guarantee that by doing exactly what you tell him to do, he will never have to worry that he will be referred to as an “N”. > > And I promise that I will never buy him saggy britches and I will smack his hand if he ever tries to scratch or adjust his junk. > > Two stereotypes down, countless to go. Don’t take this as an attack, or an insult, or anything like that. Instead, I want to add to your snark with some of my own. Your grandson is mixed race. If he acts like a “N”, then he is responsible for “bad feelings” from The Man. It’s all his fault. HOWEVER!!! If he acts “white”, whatever the hell that is, then he is being UPPITY. What happens then? Then he is responsible for the “bad feelings” from The Man anyway. Again it’s all his fault. Screw that. Let him just be himself. Why not? Some jerk somewhere will have some excuse to dislike him anyway. Some of the “answers” here really **bother me**. They sound a little too close to “You see that? You made me lynch you”. It’s the same dumb argument a wife beater would use to avoid responsibility “You made me do it”. It bothers me. ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/214 "2009-10-19T19:47:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Proper pronunciation where? Here, in America. Where did you think I was talking about? > [@](#): > > There are multiple dialects in England where the pronunciation is /aks/ and it was one or more of those dialects that were carried over by whites who interacted with slaves, influencing the pronunciation of the various black dialects. Oh, I see. I guess that explains why so many Americans use “loo” for bathroom, “flat” for apartment, “petrol” for gasoline, “biscuit” for cookie… > [@](#): > > Fixating on that difference, (and trying to claim that it is solely a “black” phenomenon), simply demonstrates a serious ignorance of speech patterns throughout the English speaking world while attempting to make some point about how “those people,” (but only the black ones), can’t be bothered to talk correctly. Speaking of behavior that reflects negatively, did you stand up and cheer along with the students at Howard University when OJ was acquitted? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/215 "2009-10-19T20:33:52Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Don’t take this as an attack, or an insult, or anything like that. Instead, I want to add to your snark with some of my own. Your grandson is mixed race. > > If he acts like a “N”, then he is responsible for “bad feelings” from The Man. It’s all his fault. HOWEVER!!! If he acts “white”, whatever the hell that is, then he is being UPPITY. What happens then? Then he is responsible for the “bad feelings” from The Man anyway. Again it’s all his fault. > > Screw that. Let him just be himself. Why not? Some jerk somewhere will have some excuse to dislike him anyway. > > Some of the “answers” here really **bother me**. They sound a little too close to “You see that? You made me lynch you”. It’s the same dumb argument a wife beater would use to avoid responsibility “You made me do it”. It bothers me. This pretty much sums up how I feel about it. I’ve read so many examples of black performers in the early 60s coming down to the south and doing nothing but trying to keep out of trouble and still having people call them racial slurs, shoot at them, refuse them service. For nothing more than their skin color. The kind of person who will see a bad behavior from a dark skinned child as acting like an “n-word” isn’t the kind of person you’re ever going to please. And it’s horrifyingly depressing to me that people don’t realize that. I think so much of the insidious nature of racism is that bigots so often convince themselves that the victims deserve it. If you’re constantly abusing someone, they’re going to become so oppressed and ugly to you that of course you think they deserve it. They’re so low and poor and live in such terrible conditions–they must be worse than us. And then you abuse them more because they displease you. I used to wonder at the mindset of the kinds of people in the south who would yell and throw things at little black children for having the audacity to go into newly integrated schools. But I think there are people racist enough to convince themselves that all these bad things are things that blacks bring on themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736.md?page=10)