# How Should We Combat Modern Racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2009, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736 "2009-09-27T08:37:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/121 "2009-10-04T21:00:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You assume there is some “debt” something than can be paid and someone is made whole. I think that’s the wrong paradigm. Your last line points to what I think is the biggest problem. If you cut off my great-great-grandfather’s leg, that has no bearing on who far I can walk. What if someone forced him into labor for life; benefited enormously from this labor; refused to give a single penny in recompense; not only did not provide him an education, but actively prevented him educating himself; and constantly tore his family apart by sending children and relatives to remote parts of the country. Then, your great-grandfather was liberated, but received nothing and could not compete on an equal footing. Your grandfather was excluded from general society and threatened with death if he had the temerity to exercise his civil rights. In effect, he paid as much in taxes as a socio-economically comparable white person, but did not receive the same quality of social services and was prevented from his constitutionally-afforded rights. Your father was subjected to systemic racism by the educational system, police, judicial system, realtors, etc. But don’t you whine because you’re equal to everybody else! In short, your analogy is laughably absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/122 "2009-10-04T21:11:30Z")
Sure, mine’s a limited analogy. The point is that the injury doesn’t stop when the crime stops. Anyway, an honest assessment – there’s the rub, right? It’s my opinion that an honest assessment of the state of equality and racial justice in America leads to the conclusion that, if the government takes an immediate hands-off, colorblind approach, what we will see will be more of the same. It’s my opinion, to put a finer point on it, that the status quo is itself racist, and this is so because of the causal line we can draw from slavery -\> Jim Crow -\> white flight & sundown towns. It’s my opinion that we’re not at a point where we can say, OK, time to let nature take over, because it’s my opinion that the damage we did to the natural order still persists. Of course, things change over time, and so you have rich black folk and dirt-poor urban whites, and all sorts of flavors in between, so it’s a class issue as much as anything by now. As I alluded to earlier, this is in large part a conversation that people much brighter than me have already weighed in on. [_Parents Involved_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parents_Involved_in_Community_Schools_v._Seattle_School_District_No._1) is a perfect example. The issue was whether public school districts could use race to determine which students would attend which schools – i.e. whether they were obligated to be colorblind, or not; is it time to “get over it,” or not? Roberts wrote the opinion, saying among other things that: > [@](#): > > Before Brown, schoolchildren were told where they could and could not go to school based on the color of their skin. The school districts in these cases have not carried the heavy burden of demonstrating that we should allow this once again—even for very different reasons. For schools that never segregated on the basis of race, such as Seattle, or that have removed the vestiges of past segregation, such as Jefferson County, the way “to achieve a system of determining admission to the public schools on a nonracial basis,” Brown II, 349 U. S., at 300–301, is to stop assigning students on a racial basis. The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. So there’s that perspective – the problem back then was racial discrimination, and the solution is to completely stop using race as a factor in our decision-making. Bingo bango, end of discrimination, end of racism, end of problem, every man for himself. Justice Breyer’s perspective, though, was more like mine, more, I believe, realistic and nuanced, and more eloquently stated than I can manage (citations omitted by me, bolding mine, and snipped by me): > [@](#): > > And what of the long history and moral vision that the Fourteenth Amendment itself embodies? The plurality cites in support those who argued in Brown against segregation, and Justice Thomas likens the approach that I have taken to that of segregation’s defenders… > > But segregation policies did not simply tell schoolchildren “where they could and could not go to school based on the color of their skin,” they perpetuated a caste system rooted in the institutions of slavery and 80 years of legalized subordination… > > This is not to deny that there is a cost in applying “a state-mandated racial label.” But that cost does not approach, in degree or in kind, the terrible harms of slavery, the resulting caste system, and 80 years of legal racial segregation… > > * * * > > Finally, what of the hope and promise of Brown? For much of this Nation’s history, the races remained divided. It was not long ago that people of different races drank from separate fountains, rode on separate buses, and studied in separate schools. In this Court’s finest hour, Brown v. Board of Education challenged this history and helped to change it. For Brown held out a promise. **It was a promise embodied in three Amendments designed to make citizens of slaves. It was the promise of true racial equality—not as a matter of fine words on paper, but as a matter of everyday life in the Nation’s cities and schools. It was about the nature of a democracy that must work for all Americans. It sought one law, one Nation, one people, not simply as a matter of legal principle but in terms of how we actually live** … > > The last half-century has witnessed great strides toward racial equality, but we have not yet realized the promise of Brown. To invalidate the plans under review is to threaten the promise of Brown. The plurality’s position, I fear, would break that promise. This is a decision that the Court and the Nation will come to regret. That’s, I think, the main point of contention as a starting point for a conversation about race. Does a black person in 2009 have the same opportunity as any other person? Does the legacy of slavery make it so some people now are behind the 8-ball as compared to others? I think the answer’s yes, it seems clear that many others do not agree. So what is an honest assessment of the impact of 200 years of slavery plus another 140 of varying degrees of segregation? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/123 "2009-10-04T22:27:49Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > So, let me get this straight. If Larry’s dad was a Nazi who got rich by pillaging Jewish homes during the Holocaust, and Larry inherits this wealth, Larry does not owe anybody anything and is fully entitled to said wealth? The fact that he has benefited from the suffering of others is irrelevant, so long as he was not directly involved in the infliction of suffering? If the survivors of the Holocaust who owned those homes are still alive, they deserve recompense. If those families are dead, what purpose is served by taking money from someone who was not involved in the crimes and giving it to people who weren’t affected by them, other than to make people who weren’t involved at all feel better about themselves? ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/124 "2009-10-05T00:13:32Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > If the survivors of the Holocaust who owned those homes are still alive, they deserve recompense. If those families are dead, what purpose is served by taking money from someone who was not involved in the crimes and giving it to people who weren’t affected by them, other than to make people who weren’t involved at all feel better about themselves? You know, I’m trying to figure the calculus you’re using, and it’s not entirely coherent. It seems that you agree that generational transfer of wealth does not remove the guilt that ought to be associated with ill-gotten gains. But if the children of the maledoers retain responsibility and moral obligation for their wealth, why don’t the children of the victims retain a certain moral claim to justice and recompense? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/125 "2009-10-05T01:42:23Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > You know, I’m trying to figure the calculus you’re using, and it’s not entirely coherent. Of course it is, you merely assert that it isn’t because you disagree with me. > [@](#): > > It seems that you agree that generational transfer of wealth does not remove the guilt that ought to be associated with ill-gotten gains. But if the children of the maledoers retain responsibility and moral obligation for their wealth, why don’t the children of the victims retain a certain moral claim to justice and recompense? We’re not talking about the children in this case. If there were children of the Holocaust victims, they would be the owners of the looted items. In this case, we’re talking about the Israeli government getting the money, are we not? The children are dead, you’re talking about giving the money to people who just happen to be of the same ethnic derivation as the victims. There is no moral claim there. Just as in the case of reparations…these aren’t the children of slaves. These aren’t even the great-grandchildren of slaves. They’re the distant relatives of slaves. There is no moral claim to the money and there is no way to get that money from those who stole it from the sweat of slaves. You’re talking about seizing money not made by ill-gotten gains but made by honest labor, from people who have no relation to the crimes, to give to people who have no relation to the victims other than skin color. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/126 "2009-10-05T02:21:07Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > We’re not talking about the children in this case. If there were children of the Holocaust victims, they would be the owners of the looted items. In this case, we’re talking about the Israeli government getting the money, are we not? No, we are not. I was actually referring to the hypothetical I posed in post #120 and that you responded to in post #123. The hypotheticals are: (1) Larry’s father benefited financially from the Holocaust by stealing goods from abandoned Jewish homes. He then sold these goods and made a fortune. After that, he had Larry. Paul’s parents were one of the families that experienced materials losses to Larry’s father. Paul was born after WW2. Does Larry owe Paul anything? (2) Same situation as #1, but this time Paul’s family lost their possessions to _someone_, who may or may not have been Larry’s father. Does Larry owe Paul anything in this case? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/127 "2009-10-05T02:31:55Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > No, we are not. I was actually referring to the hypothetical I posed in post #120 and that you responded to in post #123. > > The hypotheticals are: > > (1) Larry’s father benefited financially from the Holocaust by stealing goods from abandoned Jewish homes. He then sold these goods and made a fortune. After that, he had Larry. > > Paul’s parents were one of the families that experienced materials losses to Larry’s father. Paul was born after WW2. > > Does Larry owe Paul anything? > > (2) Same situation as #1, but this time Paul’s family lost their possessions to _someone_, who may or may not have been Larry’s father. Does Larry owe Paul anything in this case? Actually no, you didn’t mention “Paul” at all in your post. We were discussing payments made to the Israeli government in relation to the idea of reparations to modern black Americans for crimes comitted against their distant ancestors. You’re trying to move the bar now because I think you sense the indefensibility of your previous argument. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/128 "2009-10-05T02:47:38Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Actually no, you didn’t mention “Paul” at all in your post. We were discussing payments made to the Israeli government in relation to the idea of reparations to modern black Americans for crimes comitted against their distant ancestors. Huh? I thought it was quite clear that we were discussing the hypothetical in post #120. Hyp #1 is the same situation as the one in post #120, only made more explicit through the inclusion of the “Paul” agent. I added Hyp #2 in order to better determine how you assess responsibility. > [@](#): > > You’re trying to move the bar now because I think you sense the indefensibility of your previous argument. Nonsense. I am perfectly willing to discuss historical instances of reparations such as the collective payments made to Israel. However, I think the above hypotheticals are more useful, as they allow for the more specific fixation of your ideology. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/129 "2009-10-05T06:19:43Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > I can’t speak for others, but I think you are missing the point here…Some of these groups helped back in the day, but if we want to get past racism, we need to disband groups that are defined by race. It is like training wheels on a bike…they help at the beginning, but if you never take them off, you will never really learn how to ride a bike. I see your point, but I think you are operating under the assumption that people are taught to be racist, whereas I think it’s more or less the default position. Allow me to quote [this](http://www.newsweek.com/id/214989/page/2) Newsweek article: > [@](#): > > For decades, it was assumed that children see race only when society points it out to them. However, child-development researchers have increasingly begun to question that presumption. They argue that children see racial differences as much as they see the difference between pink and blue—but we tell kids that “pink” means for girls and “blue” is for boys. “White” and “black” are mysteries we leave them to figure out on their own. > > It takes remarkably little for children to develop in-group preferences. Vittrup’s mentor at the University of Texas, Rebecca Bigler, ran an experiment in three preschool classrooms, where 4- and 5-year-olds were lined up and given T shirts. Half the kids were randomly given blue T shirts, half red. The children wore the shirts for three weeks. During that time, the teachers never mentioned their colors and never grouped the kids by shirt color. > > The kids didn’t segregate in their behavior. They played with each other freely at recess. But when asked which color team was better to belong to, or which team might win a race, they chose their own color. They believed they were smarter than the other color. “The Reds never showed hatred for Blues,” Bigler observed. "It was more like, ‘Blues are fine, but not as good as us.’ " When Reds were asked how many Reds were nice, they’d answer, “All of us.” Asked how many Blues were nice, they’d answer, “Some.” Some of the Blues were mean, and some were dumb—but not the Reds. > > [SNIP] > > Her reasoning is that kids are developmentally prone to in-group favoritism; they’re going to form these preferences on their own. Children naturally try to categorize everything, and the attribute they rely on is that which is the most clearly visible. > > We might imagine we’re creating color-blind environments for children, but differences in skin color or hair or weight are like differences in gender—they’re plainly visible. Even if no teacher or parent mentions race, kids will use skin color on their own, the same way they use T-shirt colors. Bigler contends that children extend their shared appearances much further—believing that those who look similar to them enjoy the same things they do. Anything a child doesn’t like thus belongs to those who look the least similar to him. The spontaneous tendency to assume your group shares characteristics—such as niceness, or smarts—is called essentialism. > > [SNIP] > > That leads to the question that everyone wonders but rarely dares to ask. If “black pride” is good for African-American children, where does that leave white children? It’s horrifying to imagine kids being “proud to be white.” Yet many scholars argue that’s exactly what children’s brains are already computing. Just as minority children are aware that they belong to an ethnic group with less status and wealth, most white children naturally decipher that they belong to the race that has more power, wealth, and control in society; this provides security, if not confidence. So a pride message would not just be abhorrent—it’d be redundant. We will always need groups that educate society about race and class differences, and call those out who have antiquated or destructive attitudes. Mostly because people have to be trained not to discriminate based on racial lines. I think the in-group preferences we naturally have, tend to strengthen due (only in part) to societal baggage and our current environment. But, much of it seems natural. Even if we take the “fake to you make it” approach, ignoring race entirely, it’s hard to convince people to not to trust their instincts, reasoning, and/or assumptions they are hard-wired to make. Just take a cursory look through this thread. Even this notion that stereotypical urban Black style choices neatly overlap with those who commit crimes and cheat people is likely wrong. I would put money on the fact the the average person is far more likely to be cheated and robbed by a person wearing a suit, associated with white collar professionals, than one dressed like a “thug”. I know far, far more people who have been screwed by their insurance companies, credit card companies, lawyers, doctors, etc. than those who have been similarly damaged by street “thugs”. The take away should probably be that people of all types will screw you if the circumstances are right, not that street thuggery is more troubling and insidious than corporate thuggery. I think the mistaking impression people have is largely due to the fact that we normalize certain types of behaviors and crimes even though they are every bit as destructive and corrosive to society as the ones committed by people outside our group. We look down on the loan shark, but handsomely reward the credit card exec. We arrest street drug dealers and prostitutes, but generally tolerate pharmacists, bar tenders, and discrete high-end escorts. It’s the kind of rhetorical recasting that makes calls people like Steve Wynn and Donald Trump businessmen, rather than bookies. This is of sleight-of-hand rather than a meaningful distinction. If we are going to combat modern racism I think the following things would be very helpful: 1. Decriminalize and regulate black markets that exist in urban areas. Our drug laws and other laws dealing with black market activities create more problems than they solve. Now we have a society where 1 in 100 adults (disproportionately minority) is somehow involved in criminal justice system. That’s a large number of people that are increasingly marginalized and stigmatized. And, you generally have a captive audience inside many of these decaying cities where this behavior, and the violent crime associated with it, is normalized. If you were to decriminalize most of these types of crimes, you will not only mitigate the amount of wasted human capital locked up in jail, but you will be able to better control the deleterious effects of that behavior. Things like usury can still be regarded as amoral; however, we are far better off as a society when those who engage in such practices are regulated pay-day lenders rather than unregulated loan sharks. 2. Teach kids logical reasoning and decision making skills in school. Part of what makes racism so problematic today is when people make troubling, rigid, and illogical assumptions based on what they experience, and subject to biases, rather than reality. Those classes would be followed by classes that give a comprehensive history of race in our country, sociology, psychology, and biology. Hopefully, this type of education can break us of are hard-wired bad habits. Maybe we would stop seeing arguments like, White asshole= asshole, Black asshole= Nigger, on this board if we taught such classes. 3. We need to try to break this sense of entitlement people have to things that are not theirs, correct the societal notion that you get what you deserve out of life, and the belief that we can accurately judge, evaluate, and rank people in various things with such specificity, and accuracy. I think these are related points that tend to justify out collective belief that the plight of others is not our concern, and that it is (to a large extent) justified. Both are seemingly logical points that we have collectively taken too far. Just because you have better scores or a better resume, doesn’t mean you are entitled to entry in a school, or a job. It also doesn’t mean you are a better, more capable, or more deserving person. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/130 "2009-10-05T11:06:55Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Huh? I thought it was quite clear that we were discussing the hypothetical in post #120. Hyp #1 is the same situation as the one in post #120, only made more explicit through the inclusion of the “Paul” agent. I added Hyp #2 in order to better determine how you assess responsibility. No. We had been discussing payments made to the Israeli government after the Holocaust and how those related to reparations to American blacks for slavery. No individual Jewish person who was a surviving member of a family victimized in the Holocaust was ever mentioned. > [@](#): > > Nonsense. I am perfectly willing to discuss historical instances of reparations such as the collective payments made to Israel. However, I think the above hypotheticals are more useful, as they allow for the more specific fixation of your ideology. It’s pretty obvious you have a fixation with my ideology, but I don’t think I am going to play your game. ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/131 "2009-10-05T14:56:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am, touched by your naivete, but the idea that if we stop pointing out racial discrimination, it will somehow disapper from the land is without merit, as far as I can see. I have encountered far too many racists who have never encountered any actual NGO or governmental agency opposing racism. The hatred is out there and refusing to talk about it simply gives more strength to those who want to continue it, since they won’t have to answer for their actions or words. I never said we shouldn’t talk about racism. I said we should get rid of groups, and programs, that are defined by race. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/132 "2009-10-05T18:16:08Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > I never said we shouldn’t talk about racism. I said we should get rid of groups, and programs, that are defined by race. Excellent. WHere should we begin? 1. Prevent U.S Social Security Administration from gathering data on race. Give me my social security number without asking my mom to put down what race her pale skinned baby is. 2. Prevent the federal government from demanding Census takers put their ethnicity; or at the very least, provide an “other” or “prefer not to answer box” box to check. 3. Prevent States from inquiring about ethnicity. This ranges from voting applications all the way to admission into kindergarten at a public school. 4. Prevent doctors and nurses from delegating what race they think you are in your medical file. Same goes for police officers. If they want to know, they should have to ask me frankly and directly. 5. Prevent all private corporations from inquiring about race, at all. Don’t ask me about race on an application or when I’m taking a standardized exam. 6. Make it so that State can only provide information on race and crime IF the criminal openly identifies with that ethnicity. Wardens shouldn’t be taking a look at Joe Jackson and labeling him as black. I agree with you. We should live in a color blind society which could be achieved in America _if_ the State and Federal governments weren’t so goddamned intrusive. Take a look at this food stamp application, [here](http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/forms/english/DFA285A1.PDF). On page 1, the State of California states: [QUOTE= the State of California; 11629914] RACE/ETHNIC ORIGIN - Check all boxes that apply to you. **If you do not complete these items, the county will do it for you.** This will not affect your eligibility. [/QUOTE] SAY WHAT? No other place in the application has that warning. Why can’t I, as a human being, say, “You know, I don’t want to give my ethnicity and no, you can’t put it down either.” Why should a government bureaucrat be legally able to eyeball my race and forcibly incorporate me into a sea of statistics to be published on the web? It’s nonconsentual, stupid, and it should be illegal. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/133 "2009-10-05T18:31:16Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > We were discussing payments made to the Israeli government in relation to the idea of reparations to modern black Americans for Israel has received the most international aid in U.S history. Yes, the most in U.S history. Now, the United States didn’t participate in the Holocaust and, if memory serves correct, we actually freed the Jews. (Right?) Why should the U.S shell billions of dollars on museums in Tel Aviv? What is the impetus? This will not be a popular opinion but I feel if the U.S can send welfare payments to Israel, Egypt, Pakistan and the rest of these tin-pot countries, they sure enough reign in their international spending and cut me a check. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/134 "2009-10-05T22:15:47Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > 1. Prevent doctors and nurses from delegating what race they think you are in your medical file. Same goes for police officers. If they want to know, they should have to ask me frankly and directly. I don’t think that this is a good idea. Medicine is one area that we absolutely should look to race, and any other genetic factors that might help us understand diseases better and work toward cures. I don’t know what point you are making about police officers. > [@Honesty](#): > > 1. Prevent all private corporations from inquiring about race, at all. Don’t ask me about race on an application or when I’m taking a standardized exam. This is a touchy one. First, private corporations can ask for any information they want, you just don’t have to give it. Me? I don’t mind. But I can see how it might be relevant for a health insurance company to know one’s race to assess rates, and why that might have to be mandatory. > [@Honesty](#): > > Why can’t I, as a human being, say, “You know, I don’t want to give my ethnicity and no, you can’t put it down either.” Why should a government bureaucrat be legally able to eyeball my race and forcibly incorporate me into a sea of statistics to be published on the web? I don’t see why you’d bristle at this. You say you don’t want race to be eyeballed, but you don’t want to be asked either. I’m not sure what the reason is for the census to have that information, but I might agree with you if it is not be needed at all. As far as food stamps, if you want a handout you really can’t complain too much. No one is forcing you to apply for food stamps. If they have reasons why that info may be helpful, they should be able to ask for it. If not, then I agree with you. And, no, I do not see how that information would be helpful. While I’m fine with most of your suggestions, I have to ask, why are you so intent on racial information being gathered? [QUOTE=Honesty] Israel has received the most international aid in U.S history. Yes, the most in U.S history. Now, the United States didn’t participate in the Holocaust and, if memory serves correct, we actually freed the Jews. (Right?) Why should the U.S shell billions of dollars on museums in Tel Aviv? What is the impetus? This will not be a popular opinion but I feel if the U.S can send welfare payments to Israel, Egypt, Pakistan and the rest of these tin-pot countries, they sure enough reign in their international spending and cut me a check. [/QUOTE] While I’m with you and not seeing why we need to give much of the aid we do, but why do you think you should get a check? ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/135 "2009-10-06T00:51:56Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > No. We had been discussing payments made to the Israeli government after the Holocaust and how those related to reparations to American blacks for slavery. No individual Jewish person who was a surviving member of a family victimized in the Holocaust was ever mentioned. Go back and review, if you like. Your inability to logically connect segments of conversations is behind your lack of comprehension. > [@](#): > > It’s pretty obvious you have a fixation with my ideology, but I don’t think I am going to play your game. Your disingenuous use of the word “fixation” aside, it’s pretty obvious why I’m trying to figure out what your ideology is. I find it so absurd that I think some miscommunication must have taken place, as no reasonable person could actually hold this set of beliefs. But it is quite reasonable to retreat when you realize your positions are untenable. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/136 "2009-10-06T01:32:54Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Go back and review, if you like. Your inability to logically connect segments of conversations is behind your lack of comprehension. No, your inability to argue in a logical manner is behind your lack of civility and personal attack. > [@](#): > > Your disingenuous use of the word “fixation” aside, it’s pretty obvious why I’m trying to figure out what your ideology is. I find it so absurd that I think some miscommunication must have taken place, as no reasonable person could actually hold this set of beliefs. But it is quite reasonable to retreat when you realize your positions are untenable. That’s obviously why you’ve retreated into the personal attack above…you have no argument. My ideology, if you wish to call it that, is logically sound and was well explained. You simply disagree and rather than explain in a civil way why you disagree, you’ve chosen the low road. Which is why I am through with any attempt at conversation with you. Good day. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/137 "2009-10-06T01:35:56Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Israel has received the most international aid in U.S history. Yes, the most in U.S history. Now, the United States didn’t participate in the Holocaust and, if memory serves correct, we actually freed the Jews. (Right?) Why should the U.S shell billions of dollars on museums in Tel Aviv? What is the impetus? This will not be a popular opinion but I feel if the U.S can send welfare payments to Israel, Egypt, Pakistan and the rest of these tin-pot countries, they sure enough reign in their international spending and cut me a check. > > - Honesty Again, no one polled me on whether I supported foreign aid, so I think that neither Egypt nor Pakistan nor you should be receiving my tax dollars. The only tax dollars I wish to see going to Israel are maybe some secured loans to buy military hardware as a check on states like Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/138 "2009-10-07T16:39:53Z")
> [@MizTina](#): > > And what, pray tell, would “N” behaviour entail? Here’s an example that white folk all across the nation witnessed. Think the “N” word may have crossed some of their minds? ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ZvaSaeFMCy8/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZvaSaeFMCy8?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/139 "2009-10-07T17:59:10Z")
Obviously it crossed yours, since I have a pretty good memory for names and the only time I’ve ever seen you post on these boards was to blithely assert that there were people all over calling Kanye West a nigger. I believe this is the third thread you’ve done it in. Tell us “ **Paleface** ,” what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Paleface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Paleface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paleface)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736/140 "2009-10-08T12:02:02Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Obviously it crossed yours, Yes, it did cross my mind, and yes, I sometimes use the “N” word, but I don’t paint with a broad brush. Certain behavior just seems to bring it out. So, when you saw Kanye’s stunt, the “N” word did not cross your mind? > [@](#): > > Tell us “ **Paleface** ,” what’s your point? My point is to illustrate where the problem really exists within so-called “modern racism”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-we-combat-modern-racism/511736.md?page=8)