# How stringently should rules be enforced in sports? (Owen Lloyd, an All-American swimmer, broke record and disqulified for breaking a rule) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 1, 2024, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306 "2024-03-01T06:40:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/21 "2024-03-01T16:40:23Z")
My sport of choice is the NFL. With officiating this stringent, they couldn’t play the game. You can call holding on every play if you want. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/22 "2024-03-01T16:43:38Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > You can call holding on every play if you want. Or, conversely, maybe players wouldn’t hold so much if they didn’t get away with it on every play. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/23 "2024-03-01T16:44:40Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > My sport of choice is the NFL. With officiating this stringent, they couldn’t play the game. You can call holding on every play if you want . Or maybe the coaches would finally instruct their players on “not holding.” If blocking without holding can’t be done, it shouldn’t be a penalty. If it can be done, it should be done. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/24 "2024-03-01T16:57:08Z")
My sport of choice (to watch, not play) is football (aka soccer). The rule there that does seems ridiculous and unfairly enforced is the “players can’t take their shirts off when celebrating a goal” rule. That has also led to situations like the OP where a player is sent off for getting a second yellow card, when all they did to get their second “offence” was take their shirt off when celebrating a goal. That forces their team to play the rest of the match with 10 men, and means they miss the next three matches, which in a major international championship, like the world cup, is often their only chance to play in one for the rest of their lives: > **[Footballers sent off for taking their shirts off | The Knowledge](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/27/footballers-sent-off-for-taking-their-shirts-off)** > > Plus: English and Scottish teams/towns without train stations, all-non-top-flight cup finals, and home fans supporting away teams To me that seems unfair as unlike the OP it has nothing to with the actual game. Play is stopped while celebration is going on, so no opposing player is confused about which side the celebrating player is on (the reason the rule exists), its purely a procedural issue that shouldn’t effect the game. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/25 "2024-03-01T17:03:25Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > The rule there that does seems ridiculous and unfairly enforced is the “players can’t take their shirts off when celebrating a goal” rule. > > That has also led to situations like the OP where a player is sent off for getting a second yellow card, when all they did to get their second “offence” was take their coat off when celebrating a goal That seems like a ridiculously easy rule to adhere to. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/26 "2024-03-01T17:08:27Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That seems like a ridiculously easy rule to adhere to. Football managers are generally of that opinion (there are some pictures of some truly spectacularly irate managers looking at their player get a yellow card for taking their shirt off). But to me its kind of discouraging the wrong thing. I mean I want my players to actually care about the game they are playing as much as I do. I am a grown up, I understand they are professionals doing a job, and probably do not. But hell act like it, don’t act like this is just another day in the office and you’ve just filed an accounts-receivable report. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/27 "2024-03-01T17:10:57Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Football managers are generally of that opinion (there are some pictures of some truly spectacularly irate managers looking at their player get a yellow card for taking their shirt off) I guess the disconnect is connecting “being happy I scored a goal” and “take my shirt off.” I don’t equate taking my shirt off with celebrations of any kind. Perhaps footballers do. In American football, there is a rule against taking your helmet off, and occasionally a player will get a penalty for that. Because it’s against the rules, and everyone knows it, it’s pretty rare. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/28 "2024-03-01T17:22:58Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I guess the disconnect is connecting “being happy I scored a goal” and “take my shirt off.” I don’t equate taking my shirt off with celebrations of any kind. Perhaps footballers This is one of those things that should be logical and straightforward but… aren’t. Depending on the goal, the intensity of the emotions surging through a player’s mind can be truly overwhelming, I seem to remember that there were studies about this, but in any case, scoring a goal in the World Cup is probably one of the more emotional things that can happen to anyone, you just have to look at the faces of the players when they realize they actually did it to know this is something that very few things in life can compare to. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/29 "2024-03-02T00:15:46Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I don’t equate taking my shirt off with celebrations of any kind. Perhaps footballers do. They do. This example was pretty famous: [![](https://www.nydailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/2009/08/22/QJVJUWXA2ZI4KCQSIG6TOPVT3A.jpg) ](https://www.nydailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/2009/08/22/QJVJUWXA2ZI4KCQSIG6TOPVT3A.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/30 "2024-03-02T00:32:25Z")
I can’t speak for why soccer players take off their shirts in the heat of the moment (except to note that they are in enough control of their actions that they never take off their pants onfield in their desire to celebrate, or do they?), but I’ll echo the general consensus here regarding the Lloyd situation: this is a rule that I knew as a high school swimmer, he should’ve known it, and the penalty is appropriate. Here’s one we didn’t know. At meets in my high school league, the home team provided students to act as timers for each lane (this was quite some time ago). The “official” placings were determined by the referee, but the times were determined by the students carrying stopwatches. At one of our home meets, one of my teammates was DQed because the student timing him was yelling at him to go faster. Apparently timers were not supposed to show any favoritism or give any encouragement to the swimmers. You can bet that our timers were instructed to remain completely silent for the rest of the season. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/31 "2024-03-02T01:14:32Z")
Of course the rule should have been enforced. Painting Lloyd as a victim, as most of the spectators and the announcers did, is misplaced outrage. mmm ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/32 "2024-03-02T02:10:54Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > My sport of choice is the NFL. With officiating this stringent, they couldn’t play the game. You can call holding on every play if you want Holding isn’t the best comparison for this ruling, I think. There are swimming rules where the officials are able to use their discretion. This seems more like one of those cases where a football player drops the ball a yard before the goal line on a clear touchdown. It’s perfectly clear that they were going in for a touchdown, and they just started their celebration a bit early. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/33 "2024-03-02T02:27:57Z")
Actually, a good recent example would be when Kadarius Toney lined up slightly offsides and ended up negating a highlight for the ages. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/dXpvAQM8aAA/hqdefault.jpg "Kadarius Toney COSTLY Offsides Penalty Negates Insane Touchdown | Bills vs Chiefs") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXpvAQM8aAA) In that context, fair enough, call the lane penalty and disqualify him. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/34 "2024-03-02T02:46:20Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > This seems more like one of those cases where a football player drops the ball a yard before the goal line on a clear touchdown. It’s perfectly clear that they were going in for a touchdown, and they just started their celebration a bit early. This actually happened a few months ago in a college football game. Oops. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/AwTHrJDlFeg/maxresdefault.jpg "Washington drops ball before crossing the endzone, resulting in a fumble 😬 | ESPN College Football") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwTHrJDlFeg) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/35 "2024-03-02T15:05:49Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > “It didn’t affect the race” is a subjective call that can’t be proven. The whole point of rules like this is to remove subjectivity from the equation. Back in 1980, when I was in high school, I was at [a late-season Packers game at Lambeau Field, against the Houston Oilers](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198012140gnb.htm). The Packers were a bad team, while the Oilers were playoff-bound, and Green Bay was never really in the game. On what wound up being the final play of the game, with Houston up 16-3, the Packers fumbled the ball; an Oilers defensive player recovered it and ran it in for a touchdown. Except, the play shouldn’t have counted: the Oilers were clearly guilty of a procedural penalty (offsides, IIIRC) on the play. A furious Bart Starr (then the Packers head coach) ran up to the referee, who told him that the officials didn’t bother to throw the flag, because the penalty (and the play) was “inconsequential to the outcome of the game.” In his postgame press conference, Starr (who was about as genteel a person as you could ever meet) was still furious; the officials had chosen to not bother with a late-game penalty, on a cold, gray day when everyone probably just wanted to go home, but which thus led to another stomp on the throat of a team that had already been beaten. I still remember Starr’s quote in that press conference: “Inconsequential, my ass!” – possibly the first and only recorded instance of Bart Starr swearing in a public setting. From the standpoint of who won and who lost, the referee wasn’t wrong: it _was_ inconsequential. But, from the standpoint of playing (and officiating) the game properly, and not subjectively, and indicating to the weaker team that the offiicals are still going to treat them the same as the stronger team, it certainly was. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/36 "2024-03-03T06:04:23Z")
FYI - here is the original Australian team DQ’ed at the World Champs. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/EqSJ5B9FML0/hqdefault.jpg "2001 | Australia | Disqualification | Womens 4x200m Free | Graham McKenzie Thomas Rooney | 2 of 2") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqSJ5B9FML0&t=286/) Interestingly, the Australian female commentator was aware of it well before anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/37 "2024-03-03T06:06:46Z")
Sorry - I can’t queue the above video to the point in time. The press conference starts at 4.40. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/38 "2024-03-03T06:27:31Z")
The rule about crossing a lane in a swimming event has to have a reason behind it such as interference with another swimmer. Otherwise it’s a pointless rule. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/39 "2024-03-03T12:54:16Z")
> [@Wallaby](#): > > Sorry - I can’t queue the above video to the point in time. The press conference starts at 4.40. I don’t think embedded video can be queued to a certain time. Only links can. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2024, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306/40 "2024-03-12T20:25:47Z")
Olympic sports and other profitable sports are already too corrupt. Adding subjectivity to a call like this opens the door for arm twisting and bribery. Also, if you say you’ll only do it for the obvious cases, that just moves the edge boundary somewhere else. No matter where you draw the line, people will argue that the line should be redrawn. Hard rules. Learn them, live by them. Enforcing hard rules is difficult enough. Adding subjectivity makes it worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stringently-should-rules-be-enforced-in-sports-owen-lloyd-an-all-american-swimmer-broke-record-and-disqulified-for-breaking-a-rule/998306.md?page=3)