# How stupid do these anti-choicers think we are? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 6, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813 "2013-07-06T21:36:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/321 "2013-07-11T15:29:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because many women don’t live nearby these free ultrasound locations, and many other day-to-day difficulties can pop up making it difficult for some women to get an extra, unnecessary medical procedure, even a free one. Good point which I overlooked. If ultrasounds are required, what stops the government from adding extra regulation to limit the number of ultrasound machines in the state? Maybe adding a burdonsome licensing requirement to operate an ultrasound machine, or mandate dozens of new “safety” regulations in their use, or exclude it from state tax law so its purchase can no longer be treated as a business expense… I’m sure a sufficiently imaginative person could come up with dozens of seemingly-plausible ways to impede ultrasound access, while demanding ultrasound use. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/322 "2013-07-11T15:39:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No problem – and it wasn’t “Google-fu,” but “PubMed-Fu.” 🙂 > > I think Google is an awesome tool, but for a question like that, it seems to produce more noise than signal True, I thought I had read something a long time ago that zygotes were impenetrable. Interesting stuff. > [@Bricker](#): > > I certainly agree that a soul is involved; I don’t base my determination on the presence of a soul. OK well for me human brains, not genetics, not potential nor anything else, deserve rights. Guess we have to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/323 "2013-07-11T15:39:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because many women don’t live nearby these free ultrasound locations, and many other day-to-day difficulties can pop up making it difficult for some women to get an extra, unnecessary medical procedure, even a free one. If you were to learn that every abortion facility has an ultrasound facility nearby, would that affect your analysis? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/324 "2013-07-11T15:54:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you asking for a copy of the list? Your statement seemed to indicate that every woman was, in fact, given a free ultrasound. The legislation does not seem to provide for that. I certainly concede that there are places which offer free ultrasounds but I have seen no evidence that they will be guaranteed to be available for all applicants as your statement seemed to suggest. Can you show me evidence to back that up or, if that was not the sentiment your statement was intending to convey provide clarification to your meaning? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/325 "2013-07-11T15:55:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you were to learn that every abortion facility has an ultrasound facility nearby, would that affect your analysis? I would be less outraged, though still opposed, because it’s still a cynical end-run meant to make it harder to get an abortion, and I don’t believe the government should ever mandate medical procedures that both the patient and the doctor do not want. It strikes me as a gross violation of the right to privacy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/326 "2013-07-11T15:56:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you were to learn that every abortion facility has an ultrasound facility nearby, would that affect your analysis? Does the fact that there are not, and that this requirement obviously would be a great challenge to some women (and, therefore, a “cynical end-run”, as you put it), affect yours? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/327 "2013-07-11T15:58:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree with you. Specifically, why? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/328 "2013-07-11T16:14:20Z")
> [@State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1554): > > > [@State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1554): > > > > The ‘few months to a year’ in jail is a lot shorter than the time that Martin will be dead, which is FOREVER. > > > > You want to carry a gun around, and have the ‘right’ to exercise mind-numbingly poor judgement that results in you shooting someone dead? Sorry dude, you absolutely should end up in court. > > > > I don’t think he’s guilty of 2nd degree murder, but reckless homicide / manslaughter or some other charge? Abso-fucking-lutely. Either way, I still expect him to walk because of how skewed the law is (and how mind-blowingly bad the prosecution was \). > > > > So congratulations; he won’t spend the next 20 years in jail. I’m not going to lose a wink of sleep over any jail time he serves or any legal bills he has. Small price to pay for the ‘right’ to play wannabe-cop. > > This seems to embody the same sort of attitude: I don’t care what the actual law says; because I am convinced of the wrongness of Zimmerman’s actions, I am willing to see the law ignored to impose some consequence on him, even acknowledging that the consequence is not mandated by the law. > > Do you agree? Your recap of the post you quoted bears little to no resemblance to the post you quoted. The analogy you are attempting to draw between this post and some of the objections people have with the law you are (shakily) advocating for is so tenuous as to be ethereal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/329 "2013-07-11T16:21:41Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Specifically, why? Because I don’t agree that a functioning brain is the _sine qua non_ of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/330 "2013-07-11T16:23:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Does the fact that there are not, and that this requirement obviously would be a great challenge to some women (and, therefore, a “cynical end-run”, as you put it), affect yours? I don’t agree this is “obviously” a “great challenge” to any significant number of women. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/331 "2013-07-11T16:50:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree this is “obviously” a “great challenge” to any significant number of women. Which is one of the reasons many pro-choice women hold you (in this thread, at least) in such obvious disdain, I think. It seems awfully arrogant of you to presume what medically unnecessary requirements constitute difficulties, challenges, or inconveniences to women. Why not trust women to make the best decision within the law? Why does the law need to be changed in a way that presumes women can’t make the right decision on their own? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/332 "2013-07-11T16:51:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t want to answer this question. > > But I will. > > I would acknowledge that the law was a totally arbitrary and transparent attempt to limit abortion, and would admit that as such, the law was ripe for challenge. > > But I’d probably support it being passed, understanding that I was supporting a cynical end-run around the system, but believing that the saving of lives was of enough value to justify the end-run. > > I don’t say I’d do this without conflict. I hate it when my opponents do stuff like this – but quite frankly, I hate it mostly because they fail to admit that this is their goal. At least, thinks I, I’d be willing to admit the pretextual nature of the law even as I supported it. > > And because I’m on the edge on this question, I suspect that a well-crafted argument could push me to the other side and make me withdraw such support. You just made the argument. And who, pray, might offer a better crafted argument than yourself, who’s rhetorical brilliance is the stuff of legend? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/333 "2013-07-11T16:55:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you were to learn that every abortion facility has an ultrasound facility nearby, would that affect your analysis? Who is paying for these ultrasound facilities, out of curiosity? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/334 "2013-07-11T17:00:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Who is paying for these ultrasound facilities, out of curiosity? And how many people will suffer adverse medical effects due to the fact that increased demand for ultrasound services will mean longer wait times for those who actually have a medical need for an ultrasound? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/335 "2013-07-11T17:11:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Which is one of the reasons many pro-choice women hold you (in this thread, at least) in such obvious disdain, I think. It seems awfully arrogant of you to presume what medically unnecessary requirements constitute difficulties, challenges, or inconveniences to women. Why not trust women to make the best decision within the law? Why does the law need to be changed in a way that presumes women can’t make the right decision on their own? Because women are making that decision while deliberately shielding themselves from the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/336 "2013-07-11T17:21:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because women are making that decision while deliberately shielding themselves from the facts. I’m pretty sure they are aware of the fact that they are pregnant and, quite honestly, if they don’t realize what that entails I’m not sure society is best served by having them procreate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/337 "2013-07-11T17:32:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because women are making that decision while deliberately shielding themselves from the facts. This is more of exactly what I just described. How do you know the decision making process of these women? Sounds pretty arrogant to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/338 "2013-07-11T17:37:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is more of exactly what I just described. How do you know the decision making process of these women? Sounds pretty arrogant to me. Well, here’s my reasoning: If some women see the ultrasound images and hear a detailed description of the development of the fetus, and decide as a result not to abort, it proves my theory. Do you disagree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/339 "2013-07-11T17:37:25Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > I’m pretty sure they are aware of the fact that they are pregnant and, quite honestly, if they don’t realize what that entails I’m not sure society is best served by having them procreate. They just need to know that these babby cant frigth back? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/340 "2013-07-11T17:38:31Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > I’m pretty sure they are aware of the fact that they are pregnant and, quite honestly, if they don’t realize what that entails I’m not sure society is best served by having them procreate. They’re aware that they’re pregnant. They’re not permitting themselves to think of what that means: not a blob of tissue, but a tiny human being. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813.md?page=18)