# How stupid do these anti-choicers think we are? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 6, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813 "2013-07-06T21:36:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/381 "2013-07-12T21:37:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …I have laid out what I believe to be a defensible position against most abortion. Then something like this comes along. “Defensible” is not synonymous with “convincing”. Simply because you cannot be proven wrong is nowhere near proving you right. And skips blithely over the part where your nonsense gets the force of law and mine does not. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/382 "2013-07-12T21:46:11Z")
Women are not being allowed to bring tampons into the Senate Galley in Texas today. You can bring a hand gun in if you have a concealed weapons permit though. Every other section of the galley is sealed off. Troopers are harassing the pro-choice contingent. Some anti’s are being let in through the back door. Screw defensible arguments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/383 "2013-07-12T23:30:55Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > Women are not being allowed to bring tampons into the Senate Galley in Texas today. Officers, make sure to search **all** the places where they might be carrying them . . . ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/384 "2013-07-12T23:46:55Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > You can bring a hand gun in if you have a concealed weapons permit though. Good way to exclude armed liberals. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/385 "2013-07-12T23:49:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “Defensible” is not synonymous with “convincing”. Simply because you cannot be proven wrong is nowhere near proving you right. And skips blithely over the part where your nonsense gets the force of law and mine does not. In my view, your nonsense has the force of law more convincingly than mine: Roe v. Wade is still the controlling case. But I accept this, because I know that we have a system for determining the law, and I am willing to work within that system, win or lose. You are willing to work within it only as long as you win. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/386 "2013-07-12T23:52:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, your nonsense has the force of law more convincingly than mine: Roe v. Wade is still the controlling case. > > But I accept this, because I know that we have a system for determining the law, and I am willing to work within that system, win or lose. You are willing to work within it only as long as you win. Of course, politics no less than litigation constitutes “working within” it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/387 "2013-07-13T00:00:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > . . . I know that we have a system for determining the law, and I am willing to work within that system, win or lose. You are willing to work within it only as long as you win. You, individually, maybe. The high number of clinic bombings, assassinations of doctors, and other crimes severely indicts your side of the issue. If the pro-choice side had a similar record of bombing churches and assassinating outspoken pro-life pastors, you might have some kind of argument of equivalency. As it stands now, the pro-life side is the one which has shown itself more willing to go outside the rule of law. However, yes, I do admit that if Roe were overturned, I would donate money to organizations that arranged travel for purposes of abortion for indigent women so they could take “medical vacations” to pro-choice states. This would, perhaps, be “working outside the law,” although I’d suggest that the right of an individual to travel from one state to another is constitutionally protected and that this right supercedes a state’s right to prevent its citizens from going abroad to have an abortion. I’m afraid we’d need another Supreme Court ruling on that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/388 "2013-07-13T00:20:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I accept this, because I know that we have a system for determining the law, and I am willing to work within that system, win or lose. You are willing to work within it only as long as you win. I’m not sure these accusations are having the effect you want (assuming you wanted an effect other than trying to get an empty sense of superiority). Didn’t you admit as recently as yesterday that you’d support (with some misgivings that you’d over-ride) applications of the law that were “arbitrary”, “transparent” and “cynical” to get an end you’d agree with? I wouldn’t quite call that an accepting “win or lose” attitude. More like “win, or find a loophole”. Bricker is likely ignoring me at this point, which I guess is a self-protective measure against uncomfortable questions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/389 "2013-07-13T00:46:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, your nonsense has the force of law more convincingly than mine: Roe v. Wade is still the controlling case. > > But I accept this, because I know that we have a system for determining the law, and I am willing to work within that system, win or lose. You are willing to work within it only as long as you win. Who’s trying to work outside of the system? Protesting and the courts are most definitely part of the system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/390 "2013-07-13T01:08:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because I don’t agree that a functioning brain is the _sine qua non_ of humanity. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, it ain’t the soul. If it ain’t the brain either, what does that leave? Because, if such things as souls exist, we have no good reason to suppose that humans have them and animals have not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/391 "2013-07-13T01:19:57Z")
Have you been cut off too, BrainGlutton? Bricked up in your chamber, as it were? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/392 "2013-07-13T02:24:50Z")
Shit. Like he can resist an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/393 "2013-07-13T02:57:43Z")
For what it’s worth, Bricker once tried the “you would twist or ignore the law to get the result you want” crap on me, in that he assumed in my “liberal heart of hearts” (direct quote) that my sympathies would automatically be against police and for drug dealers because I supposedly supported drug legalization. I destroyed him and he apologized, and I’m guessing he doesn’t want a repeat. I’d had a promise to myself not to bring it up again because it might seem gloaty and immature (and I have reason to care about my reputation, such as it is), but Bricker’s recent behaviour has prompted me to ask why I would bother to restrain myself. I’m guessing that he’s not now likely to apologize or retract if confronted with a cogent argument that undermines his direct and implied accusations of hypocrisy - he’ll simply stop talking to that person. I suggest to anyone who finds themselves posting, say, five responses to Bricker and getting none in reply, while seeing him reply to others… you “won”, to the extent winning is possible. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/394 "2013-07-13T03:38:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Shit. Like he can resist an argument. If it scares him. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/395 "2013-07-13T11:23:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m not sure these accusations are having the effect you want (assuming you wanted an effect other than trying to get an empty sense of superiority). Didn’t you admit as recently as yesterday that you’d support (with some misgivings that you’d over-ride) applications of the law that were “arbitrary”, “transparent” and “cynical” to get an end you’d agree with? > > I wouldn’t quite call that an accepting “win or lose” attitude. More like “win, or find a loophole”. Yes, I said that. I didn’t want to answer that, because I have the feeling that some of my opponents do not approach these questions with honesty. It would have easy for me to piously deny the impulse. But you missed, or ignored, two other aspects of my admission: 1. My acknowledgement that it was a weak position, likely readily upended by argument, and 2. I admitted the bias and incongruity What I object to in the conversation above is the uncritical support, without any such admissions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/396 "2013-07-13T11:26:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Bricker is likely ignoring me at this point, which I guess is a self-protective measure against uncomfortable questions. So… I post a self-damaging admission about how I’d possibly support pre-textual laws, and then AFTER that, I am too ashamed to confront your searching inquiry? [Bill Cosby] Riiiiiiiiggght… [/Bill Cosby] ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/397 "2013-07-13T13:28:50Z")
Actually, I didn’t think the admission was self-damaging on your part, but refreshingly candid. I’d be fascinated if the Republican politicians were similarly open about their motives - “we know making a woman look at an ultrasound has no medical merit - we’re just trying to guilt her into changing her mind. Also, we know hospital-level regulations on hallway-size and such for abortion clinics is unnecessary - we’re just trying to make abortion unavailable by driving the clinics out of business.” Anyway, if you’re responding to me _now_, I think I’ve written about ten posts on the issue (including one written specifically to “upend” your position) for you to catch up on, if you wish. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/398 "2013-07-13T15:14:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > . . . pre-textual laws . . . Meaning what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/399 "2013-07-13T15:56:37Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Real human suffering matters little to Bricker. He only cares about a man in a dress in Vatican City. Yeah and I see no point in continuing to have the same arguments with him over and over again. If he wants a uterus to control so much, let him grow his own. I grew three of them. What happens in any is really none of his business. If he had one and he did not, it would never occur to me to tell him what to do it in the name of my rabbi or the torah. I honestly wish he had a few female body parts as mine have been in agony the last few days probably from endometriosis and fibroids. Maybe that would make him a little less sanctimonious and a little more grateful that women cope with the details of reproduction every single day of their lives for decades but I doubt it. I find it preposterous to sit here and listen to him discuss what pregnancy feels like or exactly how miserable one has to be to decide a woman can’t go through with it. After my first pregnancy when I literally spent three weeks in the hospital hooked up on IV’s because I could not keep food down and pleading for pain relief because the pain was so bad and I was throwing up so much, the very fact that I dared think about ever getting pregnant again was an act of enormous bravery on some level. I would never tell another woman to explain to me exactly how unpleasant her pregnancy and labor was. I certainly would not dream of legislating based on my thoughts about her pregnancy. Most people in the United States do not want abortion to be illegal. You anti-abortionists need to get over it. Focus your attention on making pregnancy safer and it easier to care for babies rather than telling a woman what to do when she winds up that way. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/400 "2013-07-13T16:03:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That would be an excellent example of, “OK, thanks, now stop helping, please.” > > When the folks are nominally “your side” say stupid crap like the quote above, it’s disheartening. > [@Trinopus](#): > > You, individually, maybe. The high number of clinic bombings, assassinations of doctors, and other crimes severely indicts your side of the issue. > > If the pro-choice side had a similar record of bombing churches and assassinating outspoken pro-life pastors, you might have some kind of argument of equivalency. As it stands now, the pro-life side is the one which has shown itself more willing to go outside the rule of law. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I would never tell another woman to explain to me exactly how unpleasant her pregnancy and labor was. I certainly would not dream of legislating based on my thoughts about her pregnancy. > > Most people in the United States do not want abortion to be illegal. You anti-abortionists need to get over it. Focus your attention on making pregnancy safer and it easier to care for babies rather than telling a woman what to do when she winds up that way. My main argument is not with abortion, but with the anti-abortion activists’ actions. They are abomidable. Just watch the Planned Parenthood protestors and you’ll see what I mean. I’ve seen them chase women who’ve told them “no” down the street and grab them by the arms to shove literature in their hands. It’s positively revolting. If they don’t like legal abortion, let them work to have the laws changed. But stop harassing women, chasing them down like dogs. ETA: I actually had a “pro-life” person tell me that once a woman is pregnant, her uterus is no longer hers! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813.md?page=21)