# How stupid do these anti-choicers think we are? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 6, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813 "2013-07-06T21:36:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/161 "2013-07-10T10:17:39Z")
> [@fudrucker](#): > > lol people have rights. including babies. so now you are the arbitrator of who lives and who dies? sounds kinda nazi to me. No, I’m the arbitrator of my own body. And another person’s right to my body does not trump my right of control over my own body. Even if their exercise of that right is what is necessary to keep them alive. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/162 "2013-07-10T10:20:05Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Here’s the thing though - fetuses are not people, they are parasites living at the whim of their host. Why can’t they be both, like the preborn Earl Warren? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/163 "2013-07-10T13:05:38Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Yes absolutely right people, of which babies are a subset of, have rights. Here’s the thing though - fetuses are not people, they are parasites living at the whim of their host. Sez you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/164 "2013-07-10T13:07:04Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > What? Don’t tell me that Perry would use his position to help his friends and family make a profit! ::cough cough Gardasil cough cough:: What? You read this, and reply to it, but don’t comment on the debunking of it? Don’t tell me **Lynn Bodoni** would ignore facts in favor of bullshit when the bullshit favors abortion!! ::cough cough Gardasil cough cough:: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/165 "2013-07-10T13:09:39Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > But you need not endanger yourself completing the rescue. True. But the danger can’t be speculative. > [@](#): > > As carrying a pregnancy to term does involve a danger to the mother doesn’t she have the option to act to remove that danger to herself? It amazes me that the human race has survived this long. A sentient alien reading this thread would be forgiven for assuming that human women are keeling over in the streets right and left as the dread dangerous disease of “pregnancy” fells them like swathes of wheat from a scythe. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/166 "2013-07-10T13:15:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It amazes me that the human race has survived this long. A sentient alien reading this thread would be forgiven for assuming that human women are keeling over in the streets right and left as the dread dangerous disease of “pregnancy” fells them like swathes of wheat from a scythe. This seems to trivialize the real risk that pregnancy carries. Do you have any sympathy for a newly pregnant woman who does not want to increase her risk of death, even by what you deem a small amount? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/167 "2013-07-10T13:33:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > True. But the danger can’t be speculative. Oh? There’s a trespasser in your home holding a shining object that might be a knife. Can you speculatively respond or must you wait until you _know_ it’s a knife? > [@](#): > > It amazes me that the human race has survived this long. A sentient alien reading this thread would be forgiven for assuming that human women are keeling over in the streets right and left as the dread dangerous disease of “pregnancy” fells them like swathes of wheat from a scythe. Possibly the same alien would note that humanity is no immediate danger of extinction, even if the reproductive process often ends in voluntary or involuntary termination. In fact, were it possible to ensure all pregnancies are completed to birth, the alien might note we’d soon have an overpopulation problem. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/168 "2013-07-10T14:01:33Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > What? Don’t tell me that Perry would use his position to help his friends and family make a profit! ::cough cough Gardasil cough cough:: Oh Lynn, really? :dubious: The Gardasil is a good thing. The vaccine works and reduces the risk of cancer. Who gives a fuck if someone makes a profit on it? It’s one of the few good things Perry has done. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This seems to trivialize the real risk that pregnancy carries. Do you have any sympathy for a newly pregnant woman who does not want to increase her risk of death, even by what you deem a small amount? He’s such a smug asshole I can only deal with him in very tiny doses. Until fairly recently childbirth was a very risky proposition for women. I don’t have a cite offhand but I’ve seen cites as high as one in twenty women dead from childbirth historically. They would die back then primarily from childbed fever. It was transmitted via unsanitary delivery practices that were pretty much standard practice. Today we get unnecessary C-sections that also threaten a woman’s health and well being. It’s vile that someone who tells us life is so sacred he must impose his religious beliefs on half the human race to save it . . . can then turn around and dismiss the seven hundred or so women in America who die each year from being pregnant so flippantly. Or ignore the fact that thousands of American women each year almost die from pregnancy. The human way of giving birth is quite dangerous. Until we evolve a better way or figure out how make it medically safer, a woman is fully justified in deciding to simply wash her hands of the whole matter. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/169 "2013-07-10T14:06:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh? There’s a trespasser in your home holding a shining object that might be a knife. Can you speculatively respond or must you wait until you _know_ it’s a knife? First I’d have to know how you got to your house from the pond where the stranger was drowning so quickly. What was that, teleporting? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/170 "2013-07-10T14:08:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This seems to trivialize the real risk that pregnancy carries. Do you have any sympathy for a newly pregnant woman who does not want to increase her risk of death, even by what you deem a small amount? “What I deem?” In today’s society, replete with healthcare provided by the government, what are the actual numbers? What kind of risk is faced by the average pregnant woman? Trivialize? I argue that as a general principle, the risk _IS_ mathematically trivial, especially when compared to the fact that avoiding that trivial risk is done by ending a human life. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/171 "2013-07-10T14:09:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sez you. Well yes because it is right there in the definition, a person is a human being with a functioning brain. P1: A human being without a functioning brain is not a person. P2: A fetus does not have a functioning brain C: A fetus is not a person. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/172 "2013-07-10T14:19:43Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Until fairly recently childbirth was a very risky proposition for women. I don’t have a cite offhand but I’ve seen cites as high as one in twenty women dead from childbirth historically. OK, you’ve convinced me. Historically we should have allowed abortions. But that has no relevance for today’s practice in the United States, does it? > [@](#): > > The human way of giving birth is quite dangerous. Until we evolve a better way or figure out how make it medically safer, a woman is fully justified in deciding to simply wash her hands of the whole matter. No, the human way of giving birth is NOT particularly dangerous. 700 women die each year, out of a population of 150,000,000 women. Seriously? That’s “quite dangerous” to you? 25,000 people died last year in motor vehicle accidents. Roughly 4,000 people drowned last year. Swimming and driving are more dangerous! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/173 "2013-07-10T14:20:44Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Well yes because it is right there in the definition, a person is a human being with a functioning brain. > > P1: A human being without a functioning brain is not a person. > P2: A fetus does not have a functioning brain > C: A fetus is not a person. I’m sorry, but what book gave you that definition? Where did P1 come from? The Big Book of Martu? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/174 "2013-07-10T14:22:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Seriously? That’s “quite dangerous” to you? 25,000 people died last year in motor vehicle accidents. Roughly 4,000 people drowned last year. Swimming and driving are more dangerous! And if you were proposing using the force of law to mandate people swim or drive I would oppose that as well. Pregnancy increases the danger of morbidity/mortality regardless of how small and I don’t believe, as a rule, that the government should be able to force you to take an action that increases your chance of death or injury. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/175 "2013-07-10T14:26:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “What I deem?” > > In today’s society, replete with healthcare provided by the government, what are the actual numbers? What kind of risk is faced by the average pregnant woman? > > Trivialize? I argue that as a general principle, the risk _IS_ mathematically trivial, especially when compared to the fact that avoiding that trivial risk is done by ending a human life. In case you missed it the first time I posed it: > [@](#): > > [Why are so many U.S. women dying during childbirth?](http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/why-are-so-many-u-s-women-dying-during-childbirth/article_dd916b4b-38f0-5bae-ba42-ddee636e4cf4.html) > > That means each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death. You’re not pro-life. You’re anti-abortion and you can fuck off. You trivialize and dismiss the very real risks women face when they become pregnant. Pregnancy will end the lives of hundreds of women in America alone. Probably thousands worldwide. As the article points out, it also involves huge health risks for hundreds of thousands of women each year. No woman should be forced to take such risks because the birth control failed or your religious and moral beliefs that they do not share. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/176 "2013-07-10T14:29:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, you’ve convinced me. Historically we should have allowed abortions. > > But that has no relevance for today’s practice in the United States, does it? > No, the human way of giving birth is NOT particularly dangerous. 700 women die each year, out of a population of 150,000,000 women. Seriously? That’s “quite dangerous” to you? 25,000 people died last year in motor vehicle accidents. Roughly 4,000 people drowned last year. Swimming and driving are more dangerous! You’re the one arguing that all life is sacred. I guess you mean some lives are more sacred then others, huh? :rolleyes: Over fifty thousand women facing serious complications as a result of pregnancy each year isn’t a danger to you? Stay away from women, Bricker, as you clearly think dead and seriously injured ones don’t matter as much as a goddamned fucking fertilized egg. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/177 "2013-07-10T14:35:10Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > And if you were proposing using the force of law to mandate people swim or drive I would oppose that as well. > > Pregnancy increases the danger of morbidity/mortality regardless of how small and I don’t believe, as a rule, that the government should be able to force you to take an action that increases your chance of death or injury. Well, then I simply disagree. The government had drafted roughly 11 million men by the end of World War II. Was that somehow an illegal exercise of government power? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/178 "2013-07-10T14:54:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, you’ve convinced me. Historically we should have allowed abortions. > > But that has no relevance for today’s practice in the United States, does it? > No, the human way of giving birth is NOT particularly dangerous. 700 women die each year, out of a population of 150,000,000 women. Seriously? That’s “quite dangerous” to you? 25,000 people died last year in motor vehicle accidents. Roughly 4,000 people drowned last year. Swimming and driving are more dangerous! > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > You’re the one arguing that all life is sacred. I guess you mean some lives are more sacred then others, huh? No, I mean that all human life is sacred. In what way does my comment suggest otherwise? > [@](#): > > Over fifty thousand women facing serious complications as a result of pregnancy each year isn’t a danger to you? Over 25,000 people killed in cars each year isn’t a danger to you? I assume it is, but I also assume that you weigh the value of automotive transport against the deaths and reach the conclusion that we should NOT ban cars. Is that right? > [@](#): > > Stay away from women, Bricker, as you clearly think dead and seriously injured ones don’t matter as much as a goddamned fucking fertilized egg. I think dead people matter just as much as dead people. I am unwilling to favor one human life over another. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/179 "2013-07-10T14:59:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > First I’d have to know how you got to your house from the pond where the stranger was drowning so quickly. What was that, teleporting? I gather that was too difficult a question for you to answer in any manner other than flippantly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813/180 "2013-07-10T15:00:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Over 25,000 people killed in cars each year isn’t a danger to you? > > I assume it is, but I also assume that you weigh the value of automotive transport against the deaths and reach the conclusion that we should NOT ban cars. Is that right? And people have a choice not to ride in cars. Why shouldn’t people have a choice to end their pregnancies? > [@](#): > > I think dead people matter just as much as dead people. I am unwilling to favor one human life over another. By an earlier statement you seem to value the life of a pregnant woman over a fetus, by at least 10 to 1. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-do-these-anti-choicers-think-we-are/662813.md?page=10)