# How stupid was Phoebe supposed to be, really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 5, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630 "2006-01-05T20:44:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/21 "2006-01-06T05:52:55Z")
I always wondered why, through the whole run of the show, Phoebe never hooked up with Joey. I mean, they seemed to be made for each other. Both dumb, both ditzy, both artists. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/22 "2006-01-06T13:39:46Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > The archetype predates television. Consider Curley Howard. Gracie Allen, mentioned in the post you quoted, predates Curly by several years, both in film and in vaudeville, and was a much bigger name during her career. > [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > I never watched the show so I have no qualified opinion on the character, but Lisa Kudrow was clearly the most talented, and likely the most intelligent cast member on the show. I agree. See her in **The Opposite of Sex** , for instance. ---
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/23 "2006-01-06T13:54:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I remember one episode where she gets into an argument about evolution with Ross, and basically destroys him. After he leaves in frustration, she admits she doesn’t have any problems with the Theory of Evolution, she just enjoyed fucking with Ross because he was acting so superior. Which episode? I t would be knda fun to see Phoebe outsmart the arrogant Ross. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/24 "2006-01-06T13:56:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I always wondered why, through the whole run of the show, Phoebe never hooked up with Joey. I mean, they seemed to be made for each other. Both dumb, both ditzy, both artists. As this thread points out, Phoebe was not dumb. My take was that her childhood was so hideous that she just decided she didn’t want to live in this world, and created her own persona to work with in this world. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/25 "2006-01-06T14:00:39Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > In some ways they’re too good for our world, aliens, changelings, faeries who have been left here by some cosmic quirk. Tori Amos has visited SDMB!!! ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/26 "2006-01-06T14:45:58Z")
Rachel wasn’t dumb - just hugely inexperienced and embarrassingly naive. Certainly she was smarter than Joey. And she got smarter over the years. My take on smartest to least smart Chandler Ross Monica Phoebe Rachel Joey ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/27 "2006-01-06T14:59:59Z")
> [@BluePitbull](#): > > Which episode? I t would be knda fun to see Phoebe outsmart the arrogant Ross. _The One Where Phoebe Outsmarts The Arrogant Ross_ ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/28 "2006-01-06T15:07:13Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I agree. See her in **The Opposite of Sex** , for instance. My point made too. If you think she’s a lightweight at all, that movie will change your view of Lisa Kudrow forever. She’s incredible in it. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/29 "2006-01-06T15:28:19Z")
> [@Mr Bus Guy](#): > > > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > > I agree. See her in **The Opposite of Sex** , for instance. > > My point made too. If you think she’s a lightweight at all, that movie will change your view of Lisa Kudrow forever. She’s incredible in it. She’s also quite good as Sharon Holmes in [Wonderland](http://imdb.com/title/tt0335563/). (It’s one of the unreliable Val Kilmer’s better efforts, too.) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/30 "2006-01-06T15:29:00Z")
the other thing about Phoebe is the whole Phoebe/Ursula thing. Whenever she plays the twins, it’s obvious that Phoebe is the smarter of the two by a wide margin ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/31 "2006-01-06T15:50:55Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > the other thing about Phoebe is the whole Phoebe/Ursula thing. Whenever she plays the twins, it’s obvious that Phoebe is the smarter of the two by a wide margin Actually… from what I remember of Ursula, it’s possible that she’s also quite smart, just even more oblivious/detatched than Phoebe is, to the extent that it represents a severe social disability. Also, she usually seems much less compassionate/empathetic, which makes her a much less endearing character and her obliviousness stands out more as annoying. > [@BluePitbull](#): > > Which episode? I t would be knda fun to see Phoebe outsmart the arrogant Ross. > [@UncleRojelio](#): > > The One Where Phoebe Outsmarts The Arrogant Ross Heheh. It’s listed on [epguides.com](http://epguides.com) as “The One Where Heckles dies”. Season two, episode three. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/32 "2006-01-06T16:07:32Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Although she certainly came off that way at times, I don’t think she was really stupid at all. I think she was really the wisest character on the show. “Holy fool” fits kinda well. I agree. She could often be both wise and cunning. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/33 "2006-01-06T16:16:19Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > The archetype predates television. Consider Curley Howard. Curly was never portrayed this way. All the Stooges were idiots, just of different types. They were never innocent or wise about the world. The Phoebe vs. Ross battle wasn’t a fair fight. If she made those arguments on this board she would have been pounded into dust particles. Ross had to be more polite because he couldn’t call her an idiot to her face. Teri Garr is less than 14 years older than Lisa Kudrow. No wonder she had to abandon her twins! ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/34 "2006-01-06T16:56:57Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > They [The Stooges] were never innocent or wise about the world. [Curly] Oh, a wise guy! [/Curly] > [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Ross had to be more polite because he couldn’t call her an idiot to her face. Actually, in the context of the show, Ross was not just being polite - he tucked his tail between his legs, defeated. Then Phobe chastised him for backing down so easily. As noted earlier, a real life paleontologist would have creamed her. ---
**Author:** ![Phnord\_Prephect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/df705f/32.png) [@Phnord\_Prephect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phnord_Prephect)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/35 "2006-01-06T19:24:33Z")
> [@Gilligan](#): > > Rachel …was a sorority sister with Winona Ryder (coconuts knocking together…) It took me three readings to realize you probably meant actual coconuts, like from a tree. I don’t think I’ve seen that episode. But when I’m done posting here, I’m going back to thinking about my first impression. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/36 "2006-01-06T20:26:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I always wondered why, through the whole run of the show, Phoebe never hooked up with Joey. I mean, they seemed to be made for each other. Both dumb, both ditzy, both artists. Do I remember correctly an early episode where Joey and Phoebe try to make out on a pool table? Someone gets a hand or a foot caught in one of the pockets. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/37 "2006-01-06T20:27:48Z")
> [@Phnord Prephect](#): > > It took me three readings to realize you probably meant actual coconuts, like from a tree. I don’t think I’ve seen that episode. > > But when I’m done posting here, I’m going back to thinking about my first impression. 😃 Well, they were actual coconuts, but they were wearing them as bras while they made out, so as you were, son! ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/38 "2006-01-06T20:31:17Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Do I remember correctly an early episode where Joey and Phoebe try to make out on a pool table? Someone gets a hand or a foot caught in one of the pockets. Actually, it was Ross and Phoebe. …things got a bit out of hand when she was consoling him over his wife being a lesbian, but the ridiculousness of the pool table accidents kept them from going all the way. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/39 "2006-01-06T21:31:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I always wondered why, through the whole run of the show, Phoebe never hooked up with Joey. I mean, they seemed to be made for each other. Both dumb, both ditzy, both artists. Well, they are each other’s “back up” So if the TV show \*\*Joey \*\* lasts a few more years, maybe Phoebes will make a cameo appearance… ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/40 "2006-01-06T21:46:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I always wondered why, through the whole run of the show, Phoebe never hooked up with Joey. I mean, they seemed to be made for each other. Both dumb, both ditzy, both artists. As the series wound down with couples pairing off neatly – Ross/Rachel, Chandler/Monica – this would’ve seemed a natural. And I bet the producers had that as their first choice, but were stymied when Joey got a spin-off. No way to hook up Joey & Phoebe, but then send just Joey off to LA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630.md?page=3)