# How stupid was Phoebe supposed to be, really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 5, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630 "2006-01-05T20:44:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/41 "2006-01-06T23:35:01Z")
IRL, Lisa Kudrow has a degree in biology. Didn’t someone say it takes a very smart person to play a ditz? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/42 "2006-01-07T04:45:21Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > As the series wound down with couples pairing off neatly – Ross/Rachel, Chandler/Monica – this would’ve seemed a natural. And I bet the producers had that as their first choice, but were stymied when Joey got a spin-off. No way to hook up Joey & Phoebe, but then send just Joey off to LA. By the time Ross and Rachel hooked up (the last episode), Phoebe was already married to Paul Rudd, my beady, red-eyed boyfriend. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/43 "2006-01-07T05:03:08Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > By the time Ross and Rachel hooked up (the last episode), Phoebe was already married to Paul Rudd, my beady, red-eyed boyfriend. I think Paul Rudd is a cutie. I wouldn’t kick him out of bed for eating crackers. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/44 "2006-01-07T16:02:53Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > By the time Ross and Rachel hooked up (the last episode), Phoebe was already married to Paul Rudd, my beady, red-eyed boyfriend. Yeah, but I’m sure the story arc for the last season, and the fact that Joey gets a spin-off, was all known long before the episodes were shot. In other words: Joey gets spin-off; writers match up Ross & Rachel for final episode; need a boyfriend for Phoebe; bring in Paul Rudd. ---
**Author:** ![cactus\_waltz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@cactus\_waltz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cactus_waltz)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/45 "2006-01-07T16:17:20Z")
If it’s still fo the interest, here’s the evolution dialogue: > [@](#): > > Ross: You don’t believe in evolution? > Phoebe: I don’t know, it’s just, you know…monkeys, Darwin, you know, it’s a, it’s a nice story, I just think it’s a little too easy. > Ross: Too easy? Too… The process of every living thing on this planet evolving over millions of years from single-celled organisms is… is too easy? > Phoebe: Yeah, I just don’t buy it. > Ross: Uh, excuse me. Evolution is not for you to buy, Phoebe. Evolution is scientific fact, like, like, like the air we breathe, like gravity. > Phoebe: Oh, okay, don’t get me started on gravity. > Ross: You uh, you don’t believe in gravity? > Phoebe: Well, it’s not so much that you know, like I don’t believe in it, you know, it’s just…I don’t know, lately I get the feeling that I’m not so much being pulled down as I am being pushed. > [There’s a knock at the door] > Chandler: Uh-Oh. It’s Isaac Newton, and he’s pissed. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/46 "2006-01-07T17:31:46Z")
Nope, still don’t think the writers had it in minde to hook up Joey and Pheobe. For one thing, that’s just too matchy-matchy. Pheobe had hooked up with Paul Rudd the season before the last. And Joey was hooked-up with Rachel. No where in Pheobe or Joey’s story arch for the last 3 years was a hook-up even hinted at. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/47 "2006-01-09T15:59:29Z")
> [@cactus waltz](#): > > If it’s still fo the interest, here’s the evolution dialogue: That’s not the good bit. 🙂 It’s later on in the episode: > [@](#): > > (Ross enters) > > PHOEBE: Uh-oh. It’s Scary Scientist Man. > > ROSS: Ok, Phoebe, this is it. In this briefcase I carry actual scientific facts. A briefcase of facts, if you will. Some of these fossils are over 200 million years old. > > PHOEBE: Ok, look, before you even start, I’m not denying evolution, ok, I’m just saying that it’s one of the possibilities. > > ROSS: It’s the only possibility, Phoebe. > > PHOEBE: Ok, Ross, could you just open your mind like this much, ok? Wasn’t there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed that the world was flat? And, up until like what, 50 years ago, you all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open, and this like, whole mess of crap came out. Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can’t admit that there’s a teeny tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this? > > ROSS: There might be, a teeny, tiny, possibility. > > PHOEBE: I can’t believe you caved. > > ROSS: What? > > PHOEBE: You just abandoned your whole belief system. I mean, before, I didn’t agree with you, but at least I respected you. How, how, how are you going to go into work tomorrow? How, how are you going to face the other science guys? How, how are you going to face yourself? (Ross leaves, without a word.) Oh! That was fun. So who’s hungry? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/48 "2006-01-09T17:51:39Z")
How did Phoebe destroy Ross in that episode? It seems to me that all she did was offer a bunch of disengenuous (sp?) arguments that were designed to get under Ross’ skin, because they were on the one subject he was passionate about. When Ross points out that there is a tiny possibility Evolution isn’t true, he’s acting like an honest rationalist in the Popperian sense. Phoebe was acting like an obnoxious twit in that exchange. I’ve never understood the hard-on people have for Ross. He’s a smart socially inept scientist of Jewish descent. What the hell’s wrong with that? Frankly I agree with Lrrr’s view of _Friends_. “Why doesn’t Ross, the largest Friend, simply devour the others?” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/49 "2006-01-09T18:53:01Z")
Thanks for posting the real end to the Ross-Phoebe confrontation. Now that you read it, how can you dispute what I said before: that she would have gotten herself creamed on this site and that Ross was too polite to tear her a new one? I hated what the writers did to Ross over the course of the show. He started out as the adult, the one who had a real education, a real job, a real marriage, and a child he cared about. That apparently so overbalanced him against the others that the writers had to make him more and more of a loser idiot with each season. I stopped watching the show as a result: it was too painful. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/50 "2006-01-09T19:02:45Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Thanks for posting the real end to the Ross-Phoebe confrontation. Now that you read it, how can you dispute what I said before: that she would have gotten herself creamed on this site and that Ross was too polite to tear her a new one? I can. I’d have to admit that there is a teeny, tiny possibility that I’m wrong about evolution, which is all Phoebe asks for. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/51 "2006-01-09T19:09:21Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Thanks for posting the real end to the Ross-Phoebe confrontation. Now that you read it, how can you dispute what I said before: that she would have gotten herself creamed on this site and that Ross was too polite to tear her a new one? I wouldn’t say that he was too polite. It’s hard to get the gist of his reaction from a transcript… he kinduv seemed to be entirely stunned that Phoebe had pulled that reversal on him, (first pushing hard on the ‘just open your mind a tiny little bit’, and then, as soon as he conceded that, turning it into ‘you totally caved.’) He’s flustered and more than a little pissed at her I think, and you could use ‘humiliated’ to describe that if you want, but it’d kinduv be a stretch. (He _is_ too nice a guy to vent his feelings at her at that point.) And yes, it’s not like she’s being particularly creative or channeling some kind of deep wisdom that Ross wouldn’t be able to deny. She’s just using cheap reframing tricks. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/52 "2006-01-09T19:09:53Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I can. I’d have to admit that there is a teeny, tiny possibility that I’m wrong about evolution, which is all Phoebe asks for. But Ross says exactly that in so many words, giving, as **Larry Borgia** said, the exactly proper rationalist scientific response. He does _not_ abandon his entire belief system: he reinforces it. This is something that Phoebe - and the great American viewing public - totally fails to understand. Phoebe doesn’t make a case, she just gives the popular view of science, same as the Creationists do: if there is any possibility that any fact of science is wrong, then god is the answer. (She doesn’t say god, true, but it’s the same argument.) Ross walks away rather than confront a friend, which is what most of us would do in a similar situation. He does not crawl away with his tail between his legs. Phoebe is trolling and Ross properly stops arguing with the troll. ---
**Author:** ![a35362](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@a35362](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a35362)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/53 "2006-01-09T19:16:05Z")
Wasn’t there an episode where Phoebe is talking about some volunteer work that she does, and Joey challenges her claim that she “gets nothing out of it”? She says she does it for the good feeling she gets, and he replies that, then, she _does_ get something out of it…and she is stymied. I’m hijacking my own thread here, but [stroking]you guys are just _so good_ at this stuff[/stroking] and we’re already on page two. And whatever happened to Baby Ben, Ross’s kid from his first marriage? Was he ever seen or mentioned again? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/54 "2006-01-09T19:56:48Z")
He was a TV offspring–only present when needed for the plot of the episode. Much like Ritchie on the Dick Van Dyke Show. this colored my perception of having kids no end–I still want them to go down the hall and disappear for a few episodes… 🙂 I think that Ross didn’t know what to do with Phoebe’s illogical attack. I don’t think he caved–I think Phoebe pressed home her perceived advantage and left him speechless. What does one say to something like what Phoebe said? Where to start? I doubt that Phoebe was standing in for Creationists there-- she’s much more likely to have some New Age philosophy than fundie religion. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/55 "2006-01-09T19:59:42Z")
> [@a35362](#): > > And whatever happened to Baby Ben, Ross’s kid from his first marriage? Was he ever seen or mentioned again? Several times. That’s why Ross wouldn’t move to England after he married Emily, and once Rachel accidentally taught Ben a swear word, and Ben and Joey were up for a part in a commercial. It was a father and son eating soup, but since Joey and Ben have the wrong coloring they paired Joey up with another, dark-haired boy. So, if Joey got the part, that meant Ben wouldn’t. I don’t think they ever introduced Ben to his sister, though, although I could be wrong on that. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/56 "2006-01-09T20:23:34Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I don’t think they ever introduced Ben to his sister, though, although I could be wrong on that. You may be correct in that. In fact after the “fun Aunt Rachel” episode, we never heard from or of Ben again. Nor Carol and Susan for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/57 "2006-01-09T20:37:27Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I can. I’d have to admit that there is a teeny, tiny possibility that I’m wrong about evolution, which is all Phoebe asks for. Well sure, but then she mocks him for admitting it. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/58 "2006-01-09T20:42:25Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > I’ve never understood the hard-on people have for Ross. He’s a smart socially inept scientist of Jewish descent. What the hell’s wrong with that? I’m confused on what you mean by people having a “hard-on” for Ross. I would think having a “hard-on” for someone meant that one was attracted to that person, but from your context above it sounds like the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/59 "2006-01-09T21:12:59Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > I hated what the writers did to Ross over the course of the show. He started out as the adult, the one who had a real education, a real job, a real marriage, and a child he cared about. That apparently so overbalanced him against the others that the writers had to make him more and more of a loser idiot with each season. I stopped watching the show as a result: it was too painful. He was the born-to-lose guy from the very first episode. I mean, how real is his marriage when his wife is out there sleeping with another woman? I always preferred Chandler. He had a “real” job. So did Monica. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630/60 "2006-01-09T21:17:46Z")
But there was no reason to make Ross a moron–witness the dolls and the dress up he played etc. It was as if they had a character who was too normal and wanted to make him stand out. They added these lame eccentricities and then beat the joke to death. To have Ross marry 3? 4? times seems a bit excessive. I always liked Ross–it was Joey I couldn’t stand. Oh, and Rachel. Ugh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-stupid-was-phoebe-supposed-to-be-really/338630.md?page=4)