# How successful was the F-104 Starfighter?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-successful-was-the-f-104-starfighter/309957
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 26, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-successful-was-the-f-104-starfighter/309957 "2005-06-26T22:17:00Z")
**Posts on this page:** 5
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-successful-was-the-f-104-starfighter/309957/21 "2005-06-29T03:56:30Z")
> [@Robot Arm](#):
>
> **Carnac** , I always thought the F-104 looked more like the [X-3](http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/X-3_Stiletto) than the X-15.
>
> The X-3 was even more of a handful than the Starfighter, and was quite prone to roll coupling. I’ve always wondered if that was a problem with the F-104 as well.
Damn fine looking aircraft. Still looks futuristic–50 years after first production.
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### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-successful-was-the-f-104-starfighter/309957/22 "2005-06-29T03:58:51Z")
IIRC the F-104 had a downward ejection seat which made an ejection near the ground a bit of a problem. Flameouts on take off would be a bit of a bitch. :smack:
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-successful-was-the-f-104-starfighter/309957/23 "2005-06-29T05:52:04Z")
> [@Rick](#):
>
> IIRC the F-104 had a downward ejection seat which made an ejection near the ground a bit of a problem. Flameouts on take off would be a bit of a bitch. :smack:
Yes and it turned out to be a very bad idea. I’m quite sure it was later changed after at least one unfortunate accident at the Lockheed plant in Palmdale, CA.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-successful-was-the-f-104-starfighter/309957/24 "2005-06-29T15:35:30Z")
> [@David Simmons](#):
>
> Yes and it turned out to be a very bad idea. I’m quite sure it was later changed after at least one unfortunate accident at the Lockheed plant in Palmdale, CA.
The most famous of which was [Captain Iven C. Kincheloe, Jr.](http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/afp/kinch.htm)
> [@](#):
>
> Meanwhile, Kincheloe kept flying. On July 26, 1958, he took off in a F-104 to fly chase for Lou Schaik, a civilian test pilot for Lockheed. The F-104 was a, and is, a mean airplane. Although it was almost fifty-five feet long, its stubby wings spanned only twenty-two feet. Its gliding angle was straight down and pilots respectfully dubbed it the “missile-with-a-man-in-it.” Another feature was the pilot’s ejection system. Instead of ejecting upward through the canopy, the pilot shot himself downward out of the airplane. Kincheloe climbed to almost two thousand feet when suddenly the engine quit. Immediately the plane began to fall, and Kincheloe was already too low to eject downward, while he still had control of the plane, he began to roll it over on its back, calling over the radio, “Edwards, Mayday Seven Seventy-two, bailing out.” The plane was almost inverted when Kincheloe ejected, his parachute still unfurling, followed into the flames. Captain Iven Carl Kincheloe, Jr. was dead, and was buried with full military honors at Arlington National Cemetery on August 1, 1958.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-successful-was-the-f-104-starfighter/309957/25 "2005-07-01T15:23:34Z")
I ifound my _F-104 Starfighter in action_ book. According to it, Turkey still used the Starfighter (and had been buying every one they could get when other countries retired them) as of 1993 and the type was expected to be inservice into this century.
From what I’ve read, the F-104’s poor reputation seems to ahve come from early accidents with the German air force. Other countries flying them in similar conditions had lower accident rates. (Spain, due to the fewer flying hours and better weather, is the only country not to have lost any F-104s in crashes.)
The book said that there are unconfirmed reports of F-104s with the Taiwanese air force engaging MiGs.
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