# How syllables does the word "sire" have?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 27, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816 "2014-06-27T21:17:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/41 "2014-06-28T13:18:05Z")
> [@bob\_2](#):
>
> Not me - but it’s more like “foy err”, which is how most of us pronounce foyer.
>
> Filet steak is also pronounced “fill ett” steak One does not “fill ay” a fish.
Yeah, I noticed Americans pronounce “foyer” differently (I’m assuming you’re American, apologies if not). I’ve heard “fil-ay” a few times from Americans and thought that was normal there (here we always say it like “fil-it”). And “valet” is pronounced “val-it”.
Confusing, isn’t it?
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/42 "2014-06-28T14:33:36Z")
The problem is that fire contians a triphthong that requires the mouth to move in two different directions. You open it wide for the ah [a] sound, almost close it for the ee [ɪ̈] or y [j] sound, and then have to open again so that you can make the rr [ɚ] or uh [ə] sound. It takes so long that it easily divides into two syllables.
Even the old method of holding your hand below your chin and counting how many times it opens gives you two syllables, not one.
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### Author:  [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/43 "2014-06-28T14:54:37Z")
> [@jtur88](#):
>
> English convention does not regard “R” as a vowel, even though “fire” is pronounced the same as “fighter”, with the same number of syllables, except that a /t/ is placed between the two syllables /fi/ and /er/.
I have sometimes argued that R should be counted as a vowel. It seems to me that the major difference between vowels and consonants is that consonants require you to touch together some combination of lips, tongue, or teeth, whereas vowels don’t. Also, vowels can be sung in long notes but consonants are instantaneous. By either of these definitions, R should be a vowel.
I say “sire” is a triphthong. It has three vowel sounds which are run together as one syllable. The first vowel sound is ahh, the second is eee, the third is urr. But that’s going on the assumption that R is a vowel.
Anyway, this is all just opinion. When you consider the fact that every single person speaks a slightly different way, in terms of vocabulary and pronunciation, there really isn’t anything solid that you can point to and say “That is the English language.” It’s just a mishmash of rules that people like Noah Webster made up.
> [@jtur88](#):
>
> For no reason other than a desire to codify life with rules and pedantically yell at people who break them.
well said.
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/44 "2014-06-28T15:36:23Z")
I personally agree with everything **sbunny8** just said on the topic.
Well done!
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### Author:  [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/45 "2014-06-28T15:37:52Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> The problem is that fire contians a triphthong that requires the mouth to move in two different directions. You open it wide for the ah [a] sound, almost close it for the ee [ɪ̈] or y [j] sound, and then have to open again so that you can make the rr [ɚ] or uh [ə] sound. It takes so long that it easily divides into two syllables.
>
> Even the old method of holding your hand below your chin and counting how many times it opens gives you two syllables, not one.
Not when I say it. I make the [r] (untrilled) with my mouth mostly closed, and I can articulate the [j] with my tongue regardless of how open my mouth is. One chin movement.
Though I still wouldn’t say it’s only one syllable. At least, not until someone tells me what a syllable actually _is_.
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### Author:  [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/46 "2014-06-28T18:29:47Z")
> [@JKilez](#):
>
> One syllable and a [diphthong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong).
Concur.
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### Author:  [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/47 "2014-06-28T18:57:37Z")
> [@sbunny8](#):
>
> I have sometimes argued that R should be counted as a vowel. It seems to me that the major difference between vowels and consonants is that consonants require you to touch together some combination of lips, tongue, or teeth, whereas vowels don’t. Also, vowels can be sung in long notes but consonants are instantaneous. By either of these definitions, R should be a vowel.
>
> I say “sire” is a triphthong. It has three vowel sounds which are run together as one syllable. The first vowel sound is ahh, the second is eee, the third is urr. But that’s going on the assumption that R is a vowel.
>
> Anyway, this is all just opinion. When you consider the fact that every single person speaks a slightly different way, in terms of vocabulary and pronunciation, there really isn’t anything solid that you can point to and say “That is the English language.” It’s just a mishmash of rules that people like Noah Webster made up.
>
> well said.
Not a linguist, but I believe ‘R’ is considered an approximant, and the grammar of some Indian language considers it a ‘semi’vowel’. Any linguist is free to correct me.
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### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/48 "2014-06-28T19:11:33Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#):
>
> Not a linguist, but I believe ‘R’ is considered an approximant, and the grammar of some Indian language considers it a ‘semi’vowel’. Any linguist is free to correct me.
Yes, it’s an approximant (and l is a lateral approximant), some English dialects use it as a vowel too. If you take a basic linguistics class, you tend to learn that there are a handful of English words (depending on dialect, of course) with no “standard” vowels. one notable one is squirrel, which many (including me) pronounce /skwɹl/.
Edit: I think this may be a holdover from old Norse or something. Whenever I hear very old Norse (or modern reconstructions of it, rather), it strikes me how much they use the ɹ sound.
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### Author:  [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/49 "2014-06-28T19:15:36Z")
> [@Zeldar](#):
>
> I guess I’m going to have to give you that one. Said side by side there’s a difference, but unless you slow the typical speech down to hear it, you would be hard pressed to hear that second syllable in higher. Too many words are that way, IMHO.
One vote for hire and higher being the same pronunciation.
Sire is the same as sigher.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/50 "2014-06-28T20:14:51Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#):
>
> Not when I say it. I make the [r] (untrilled) with my mouth mostly closed, and I can articulate the [j] with my tongue regardless of how open my mouth is. One chin movement.
>
> Though I still wouldn’t say it’s only one syllable. At least, not until someone tells me what a syllable actually _is_.
I guess I can do it without chin movement, too, but then my tongue has to shift quickly so I can switch from [j] to [ɚ] (what you called [r]). And so my tongue changes direction.
So chin or tongue, it seems that having two movements makes it take long enough that it feels like an extra syllable.
BTW, I get the same phenomenon with sour [saʊɚ]. Interestingly, it does not happen with, say, stair [steɚ], because it become only a diphthong. I think that’s because [e] (Canadian “eh?”) is not ambiguous–clearly implying ay [eɪ], while AH [a] could mean either OW [aʊ]/[aw] or I [aɪ]/[aj].
Something similar happens with L [ɫ], but it seems to be connected with the [j] or \* sounds, and not whether preceded by a diphthong. Seal [si:ɫ] almost sounds like it has two syllables.
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### Author:  [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/51 "2014-06-29T00:31:00Z")
I think there are two things at stake here: How is _sire_ pronounced? and How do we count syllables in a given pronunciation?
I think we’ve answered the first question pretty thoroughly, and it’s clear that there is a fairly wide range of pronunciations, some of which are clearly monosyllabic and some of which are clearly bisyllabic. For a large number of pronunciations, however, it seems the answer is less clear even when the pronunciation is agreed upon.
I know that _cat, run, a, I, strength, strange, feels,_ and _blue_ all have one syllable, and that _barrel, oyster, carpet, Utah, naive,_ and _cancel_ all have two, and I can generalize those rules quite widely, but I’m not sure what exactly the rule I’m generalizing _is_. Reading the Wikipedia article on syllables leaves me even more confused, and it seems that even linguists don’t have a firm definition that can be used in all cases and all languages.
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### Author:  [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/52 "2014-06-29T01:51:33Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#):
>
> I think there are two things at stake here: How is _sire_ pronounced?
It’s pronounced the way the dictionary says it is.
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### Author:  [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/53 "2014-06-29T08:47:36Z")
> [@copperwindow](#):
>
> It’s pronounced the way the dictionary says it is.
This is factually incorrect. Or at least, it’s only correct as far as it goes. Dictionaries don’t attempt to exhaustively catalog all dialects, and different dictionaries list different pronunciations. You might argue that it only _should_ be pronounced the way the dictionary says it is, but you’ll get no support for that view from the people who actually make the dictionaries. And you’ll still have to contend with different dictionaries giving different pronunciations and some dictionaries giving multiple pronunciations.
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### Author:  [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/54 "2014-06-29T15:44:39Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#):
>
> I know that _cat, run, a, I, strength, strange, feels,_ and _blue_ all have one syllable…
I disagree; “strange” is really two syllables, IMHO. It’s like “strain” and then “juh”. You can de-emphasize the second syllable so that it almost disappears, but it’s still there. And sometimes, for emphasis, people will pronounce it with three syllables: “stir” + “rain” + “juh”. The best we can say is that the majority of English speakers pronounce those words with one syllable most of the time, and therefore if you tried to break them up with a hyphen at the end of a typed line, they would look funny.
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### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/55 "2014-06-29T18:30:36Z")
> [@sbunny8](#):
>
> I disagree; “strange” is really two syllables, IMHO. It’s like “strain” and then “juh”. You can de-emphasize the second syllable so that it almost disappears, but it’s still there. And sometimes, for emphasis, people will pronounce it with three syllables: “stir” + “rain” + “juh”. The best we can say is that the majority of English speakers pronounce those words with one syllable most of the time, and therefore if you tried to break them up with a hyphen at the end of a typed line, they would look funny.
No, the affricate /ʤ/ is a valid terminal consonant in English.
Edit: Though sometimes it is moved into the beginning of the following word if it begins with a vowel, but that happens with a lot of final consonants. “Wouldn’t it be strange if…” can become more like “wouldn tit be strain jif?”
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### Author:  [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/56 "2014-06-29T19:17:27Z")
In order to get the correct answer, it might help to ask the correct question. In this case, it’s probably
How do you define syllable?
Unless your answer is “I know one when I hear one”, it’s more difficult than you might imagine.
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/57 "2014-06-30T19:43:15Z")
> [@jtur88](#):
>
> Syllables are rather arbitrary in English diphthongs.
Untrue. A diphthong is a union of two vowels pronounced in one syllable (I’m quoting the Oxford English Dictionary there); put differently, it is a vowel song in which the tongue moves during pronunciation, without a hiatus in between. By definition diphthongs are monosyllabic, just as, by definition, an individual creature of a bipedal species walks on two feet.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/58 "2014-06-30T20:07:30Z")
Another vote that “hire” and “higher” are not homonymous. The first has one syllable; the second two.
Regards,
Showdawn
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### Author:  [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/59 "2014-07-01T03:57:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Another vote that “hire” and “higher” are not homonymous. The first has one syllable; the second two.
>
> Regards,
> Showdawn
I can’t figure out how to say it with one syllable. I know [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) is no source, but I say it the way their audio clippy thing does.
With one syllable, is it more like “sar”?
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### Author:  [@pojimba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pojimba)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-syllables-does-the-word-sire-have/691816/60 "2014-07-01T13:28:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> Both fire and sire have two syllables for me. Where I live (Saskatchewan), film and milk are sometimes two syllable words as well.
How in the world does milk have two syllables?
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