Didn’t this all break out ten or 15 years ago? I don’t understand why this is becoming such a fuss now for you guys.
<sigh>
I’m not gonna start this with you, heathen, because if you’d really rather pick at my religion than talk about the OP, you should really go over to Great Debates and ask somebody else. I really don’t think that we’re gonna come to an understanding all of a sudden over something that people have been fighting over for centuries.
Please go back and read my post. Did I say anything about dead bodies and raped children? No. I said that I stay a Catholic because I believe in the tenets, not because I am blindly following. There are gonna be problems in any organized religion. You can’t show me a religion that doesn’t have “dead bodies and raped children” in its history. Heck, most governments can’t really stop that from happening.
So anyway, about the issue at hand: I am pretty sure that priests are subject to the same laws that we are; I don’t think they are exempted. So, I really don’t understand the explanation of why priests who have broken the law are not always prosecuted.
As tempted as I am to tell you to “piss off” Magickly, let me try talking to you before any insults. Maybe you could do the same.
“Ah, it’s really sad that this is becoming so huge.”
Yeah, getting caught sucks, doesn’t it. It’s sad that awareness will likely prevent a bunch more innocent kids from having a person they trust violate them sexually? Gah! I’m so sick of the leadership turning a blind eye I could puke.
“allowing the media to balloon it into a larger problem than it actually is.”
Please tell me this is the longest typo you’ve ever shat. How frikken’ big of a problem does it have to be before you or some sensible Cardinal will address it? I’m really really sorry you’re embarassed by the issue but had it been dealt with properly and firmly decades ago when it first headed it’s ugly rear, maybe many kids lives would have been spared an unimaginable amount of torment.
“need some good PR”?
Yeah, it’d be pretty shitty if your deeds and compassion had to stand on their own merits.
Trust me, I have ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with the values Catholics say they embrace. I support them wholeheartedly. But to look the other way for decades while kids are being abused and lives are being ruined is behaviour I’d find reprehensible even from the retarded. And this is the church leadership that’s fallen into this practice?
Frankly, I find your assertion that all institutions are going to screw up periodically and that makes everything acceptable extremely disturbing. There’s a serious problem, m’kay? Don’t put the onus on the legal system when you KNOW yourself the difference between right and wrong.
Somebody get a god damn spine.
I am going to ignore your insults, and say, yes, I agree with you, lieu. I am looking for the bishops and archbishops to take the lead and stop turning a blind eye and instead admit to it when someone has done something wrong. I do not like it that they are paying off people to keep quiet.
Instead, I think it would be a good idea for a priest who is accused to go through some sort of investigation. If he is found to be guilty, he should be defrocked; if found innocent, allowed to keep to his duties as before. I think the important thing would be to find the truth, rather than trying to ignore the problem.
I didn’t mean to fly off the handle Magickly… sorry if I came across as harsh but the notion that anyone that could violate the innocence of youth absolutely peeves me beyond words. I think we’re probably pretty close in our contempt for these perps.
If priests are allowed to get married, the next thing they will want is the right to get divorced.
So, let me ask this-because someone is Catholic, and is NOT leaving the church over this, does this mean they are condoning it?
Because if that’s what you’re insinuating…
I quit church over a MUCH smaller beef than I have with raping children.
Given that the Pope said, in effect, ‘the Devil made them do it’ and the continued stonewalling by Bishops et.al., how can one see tithing as anything BUT acceptance, if not positive endorsement?
224 criminal charges involving pedophilia were recently dropped against (Archbishop(?)) O’shea locally (statute of limitations). He is still facing charges on embezzeling $250,000.00 in Church funds.
The local Catholics remain loyal. Please explain this mindset
LOL! Can’t tell you how many recovering Catholics I know! Most of them grew up in ultra-strict families where deviating even a millimeter from the status quo was grounds to “burn in hell”. Most also attended parochial school from elementary through high school, and even college. The recovering Catholics I know all embrace individuality, not to mention freedom of thought. Our next-door neighbor’s daughter is a perfect example – parochial education and Mass every Sunday from first grade through grad school…she married a gentleman not only of a different religion, but a different race, and is very happy. Her parents nearly had a heart attack!
Vindictive name-calling explains nothing.
care to try again?
Not a Catholic, but have opinion anyway.
The pattern of conduct in all of these cases, and there appear to be hundreds, if not tens of thousands of incidents, is that felonious priest molests boys, the higher ups find out about this crime, and rather than turn it over to the police and fire the priest, they hush it up and transfer the priest to another parish where he is in a position to repeat this activity, and in the cases that come to light, always does.
Under the law, an organization, be it a school, corporation, church, or bridge club, has a legal duty to report suspected child molestation to the authorities. Any organization that does not do that is criminally liable. When an organization has a de facto policy of disobeying the law (and in this case, it may be official policy because despite the many incidents, none of them seem to have been reported by the church), and repeatedly breaks that law, it is racketeering. The laity have been sorely betrayed by the church hierarchy here. Not only because the church they love has become complicit in crime, but because the victims are their own children, and the crimes are anything but trivial.
While I have a great deal of respect for John Paul II as a holy man with the best of intentions, as an outsider and Protestant, I also think that his leadership on this matter and other political matters within the church are lacking. He has advanced the agenda of ultra conservatives within the church, clamping down on dissent, promoting his secret club Opus Dei, and not coming face to face with the biggest problem the church has, not understanding sex and sexuality. Granted the church is a private organization that can believe anything it wants, but it has not seriously reviewed its policies towards women or celibacy despite having no biblical support for these policies and in a world that women in many countries have grasped their human rights as equal beings and in a world that those who are called to a ministry and love someone of the opposite sex are told they cannot answer both callings. This makes for an environment of secrecy and a hierarchy of people who cannot possibly understand human nature.
Is this a media problem for reporting it? No, that is the media’s job. It has been getting more attention lately, but that is due to successful prosecutions.
Were this happening to a private corporation, the civil lawsuits would destroy the company rather quickly. As a Protestant Christian, it is my sincere belief and desire to see the Catholic Church as a potential force for great good in the world and great leadership of Christians. But leadership requires getting out in front and leading the efforts to reform. As good a man as I believe John Paul II to be, that this crisis is cresting when his health has essentially failed is a tragedy of great proportions, because had this happened 15 years ago, I believe he had the personal charisma, energy, flexibility and moral authority to see the church through a crisis that could destroy it. If someone like Cardinal Ratzinger becomes pope shortly, inflexibility and leadership that is not seen as “good” could destroy or cripple the organization and hurt all of its good works.
My point is-what do you want us to do? Why should I abandon my faith in GOD, over my anger at the Papacy and the church?
It’s what I said Greeley mentioned-do you worship the church, or God? Why should I let the jerks make me leave? Shouldn’t I stay and fight for what I think is right?
I’m sorry, but you have no idea how painful this is for Catholics right now.
friend guinistasia,
i admire your ability to maintain your faith in the face of such adversity.
Guinastasia, sometimes I feel there’s no explanation on God’s (or Bob’s) Green Earth that you could give will satisfy happyheathen … however as someone who was raised Catholic but has been for a while estranged from the Church, I have great respect for your steadfastness.
Oh yeah, on the OP: I’m with DPWhite. The Church’s operational power structure has been in a stand-pat “preserve our authority at all cost” mode, and it’s the wrong approach.
They should strip the pedo-priests of office and turn them in, can the covering-up bishops (or at least make sure their careers have dead-ended), and make a public institutional Act of Contrition. How did that go? If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off?
Oh, and also:
I’m not a very devout one-I don’t go to Mass very often-but for some reason, I can’t leave it behind.
Last night, at our Easter Vigil, Fr. John mentioned this and said, “It’s not about sin-it’s about a disease. A sickness. And to reassign them, or take them away is not the answer. Now we understand more about the nature-and can get these people help.”
Mind you, he was defending the priest-but you have to hand it to him-he’s right. It IS a sickness-a psychological disorder, and it needs to be handled-BEFORE anything happens.
And we’re lucky, like I said, in our diocese the issue has always been dealt with correctly-the priests were taken, got whatever help or punishment they should have. It wasn’t swept under the rug.
But he also said-we can’t let this defeat us-that the priesthood itself is NOT all diseased or corrupt-only certain parts, and they need to be dealt with.
(Yes, I would have liked him to rant about the cover ups, and the way the Pope is dealing with this, but what are you going to do?)
If, as JP@ and Ratzinger explained, homosexual acts are ‘intrinsically evil’, why do Priests get off with “it’s an illness”?
just another way of excusing their actions.
Vat II and Liberation Theology (both of which met SERIOUS resistance w/i the Church, BTW) had given me hope that the Church was committed to cleaning up its act.
maybe the next Pope will change course…
Guin, the last thing I’d want to see is any Catholic leaving the church over this. The religion itself certainly can’t be blamed for the weakness of man. We’re ALL in part responsible. And I’m sorry to read what you said about Catholics as a whole being shamed by this. That makes me hurt.
I think we all have to make sure that this kind of behaviour is never tolerated again. Some of you are in an excellent position to do so. Were this to ever happen in the Baptist church, it would be my duty to make the church leadership aware of the fact and if they didn’t address it properly, then to contact law enforcement.
I like what DP had to say, he’s got a better grip on the situation and is far more eloquent than I.
A couple of more things…
First, I have no misconceptions that this hasn’t happened to every faith in the world at some time in the past. While it might be a problem for Catholics now, it certainly isn’t a “Catholic problem”.
Secondly, I did come across this years back and took immediate steps to stop it. A counselor at a boy’s camp I attended was judging an “erection contest” among 10 or 11 year olds under his care. When I discovered this, I got another counselor to take care of the kids while I went for the director. The person was dismissed and reported to police that very afternoon.
Part of the problem in today’s crisis is that it’s been confused by and associated with an organized faith. Why the complexity? A perp is a perp. Investigate and, if appropriate, arrest 'em.
I’ve said it many times- the Church is God’s, but he left it in the care of human beings, and human beings are subject to prolonged bouts of cranio-rectal inversion.
OK, so the hierarchy has swept the issue under the rug in order to protect Holy Mother Church from scandal. Result, Holy Mother Church now has a reputaion as a haven for child molesters.
I think this is a separation of church/state issue. Child molestation is a criminal act, and the victims (through their parents) should be going to the police, not the bishop. Of course, if the accusation is proven true, the priest should be defrocked, if not excommunicated. Yes, they should have access to the confessional, and no I don’t think confessors should turn penitents in. God forgives sins, but the Church has a responsibility to not endanger children by placing (or retaining) pedophiles in positions of power or responsibility over them.
Oh, and there’s no such thing as forced celibacy in the church. They volunteer for it.
And allowing the ordination of married men is not the answer. The vast majority of child molesters are heterosexual married men.