# How To: argue with Trumpers **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 27, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856 "2021-03-27T15:54:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/101 "2021-03-31T00:52:04Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > One reason some remain devoted to Trump is that he’s their example of NEVER comporting himself as though reality could smack him in the face—because for the most part, it never has. His delusion that he’s a Winner, Respected, Successful, etc., remains largely intact. I don’t feel this is accurate. Trump’s life story has been a string of events where people have handed him opportunities to easily succeed - and then Trump bungled things up and failed. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/102 "2021-03-31T01:01:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t feel this is accurate. Trump’s life story has been a string of events where people have handed him opportunities to easily succeed - and then Trump bungled things up and failed. Sure, but that’s not the _ **perception** _ his followers have of him. They see him as rich successful billionaire. They don’t bother going with a fine-toothed comb over his various business ventures, as if they are doing some audit of him. He is Mr. Big Rich Tycoon to them. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/103 "2021-03-31T01:48:36Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > An interesting term crossed my radar for the first time yesterday: _disunderstanding_ . Might not be new to you, but it’s new to me. In a nutshell, it’s the practice of intentionally misunderstanding your opponent’s arguments so as to rob them of their force. It’s basically just another way of describing “strawmanning” which is as old as the hills. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/104 "2021-03-31T02:11:19Z")
Quite a bit of factual evidence of biology, basic science, sociological statistics etc. are ignored when inconvenient. It’s unfortunate when every apolitical institution chooses to become political. The lack of neutrality undermines the source. If you want to argue successfully with so-called Trumpians using facts then it will be of utility for those who present the facts to be free of any perceivable bias. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/105 "2021-03-31T02:12:11Z")
Wow thanks for exposing me to Beau of the fifth realm. I watched both of these and then watched his Trump accomplishments video…just wow! ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/106 "2021-03-31T02:20:11Z")
I don’t agree with him on everything and I understand he’s perhaps using a little bit of artifice in how he comes across, but damn does he do it well. He manages to combine a folksy, down to earth “it’s all just common sense” style while putting forward a relatively progressive agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/107 "2021-03-31T02:31:30Z")
I just had a short online conversation with a Trumper. I presented him with the fact that Joe Biden is currently president. His reply? “Ha ha you wish! Your (sic) an idiot. Everyone knows that Trump is the real president now!” I guess my fact of who is currently president just showed my bias. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/108 "2021-03-31T02:33:14Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > They just decide “it’s not going to happen to me”, and the cognitive dissonance is resolved. That’s not resolving it though, that’s just holding two contradictory facts, which **is** cognitive dissonance. Anyway, we could get into the weeds on the psychology, the important point is that I disagree with any notion that Trumpists _really_ know the truth and are just playacting. I’ve interacted with enough Trump voters to know that they truly believe at least most of it, thanks to only getting their news from FOX, Facebook and Newsmax et al. Now, as I alluded upthread, it’s possible to get someone who is experiencing cognitive dissonance to have a moment of realization. And in that moment, they need to drop one of those beliefs (though of course there are debate tactics to avoid this, like gish gallops or the like). But that’s a different thing to saying they knew that one or both belief was false all along. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/109 "2021-03-31T02:39:24Z")
With the truly irrational you aren’t ever going to reach them so those sort of conversations are a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/110 "2021-03-31T03:38:54Z")
Well for a very large number who still vociferously support Trump at this time, that’s what we are dealing with. No facts, no matter how they are presented will sway them. They are irrational. They have manufactured their own reality. ---
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/111 "2021-03-31T04:09:01Z")
I really wish I could bring myself to not comment but these Trump supporting (in my case all outrageous religious zealots) drive me to distraction and I want to get a few things off my chest even if it will never affect a single one of them. Truthfully, I would rather discuss it with sane people like those here on The Dope. > [@Odesio](#): > > We have the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, the Gilded Age, and even the Age of Enlightenment. I have a sneaking suspicion this will be known as the Age of Alternative Facts. I have said before and I truly believe the modern American Church is now entering _their_ dark ages. They deny science, they follow the least Christ like president ever, they are more interested in consolidating power than any form of righteousness or devotion. They also sell indulgences through PACs, they believe relics hold special powers, they are superstitious and punitive and willing to set aside their own values to hold power. If Trump had actually won a second term-- we would all EXPECT The Spanish Inquisition (and it would have made the first one pale by comparison). > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You’re describing a normal rational person. I don’t think that’s what’s going on here. I think they’re following the herd of people who look like them, and they rationalize it by saying they trust that person. > > Who would ever listen to Donald Trump speak and think he’s trustworthy? If your definition of “trust” means “I can rely on him to hurt people I don’t like”, yes, that’s a thing. > > But in the sense of “I can rely on this man to tell the truth, and to practice what he preaches”, no, of course nobody can look at the record and believe that. They’ll certainly act as if they do, though. They understand they’re foot-soldiers of a narrative that cares nothing about verifiable fact. You forgot the rationalization that “they all lie” so it is okay when Trump does it- it’s just what politicians do. > [@Mijin](#): > > Well exactly, and it’s really a fascinating (but also scary) example of cognitive dissonance. > Many Trump supporters will admit Trump doesn’t always tell the truth, or they’ll say some nonsense like “take him seriously, not literally”. > > Yet if you ask them to mention a Trump lie, many would be unable to do so. Because that would involve not just a vaguely negative statement in the abstract, but coming to terms with a specific, deliberate deception. > And being a Trump supporter necessarily means never thinking of such things, because then it would all quickly unravel. I have also observed that even if you can get one of them to accept a fact or ANY reality-- it is a very short lived moment of clarity. As soon as they fall asleep they awake back at their default setting with Trump upon his thrown and all is right with the world (except those blind libs fighting against truth, justice, and the [1950’s] American Way!) > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I gotta call BS on this line of reasoning. Trumpists have manifestly declared that they are little interested in whether they’re harming **other** people. Their rationale for storming the capitol or coughing on people in a pandemic is “I want it because I want it.” Zero thought as to whether they’re harming others, except to assess how to blame the person for harming themselves. (My emphasis.) I think they are also guilty of group think. What “WE” want, and ‘we’ is everyone who is a good, bible believing Republican and **OTHERS** DON’T MATTER AT ALL. In fact, we would be a lot better off if the libs all drowned!! Of course they don’t care – we are not the opposition, we are enemies of justice! > [@Mijin](#): > > _pretend_ - that just doesn’t make any sense. If someone is genuinely worried about a threat then they don’t put themselves at further risk for…no apparent motive. > > Obviously someone can be ignorant enough to not know something is a risk. Or they could have cognitive dissonance and although they know something is a risk, it’s getting overridden by another part of the mind that is telling them “Trust in Trump” or whatever. > > Neither of these things is _pretending_ though, and I just don’t think you have given any reason to think that Trumpists are merely playing dumb. I have to say that of the ones I deal with, they tell themselves the lies so often they have desensitized themselves to them. The Cognitive Dissonance becomes real (and a rallying cry!) for them. > [@Velocity](#): > > This is one reason they were so terrified and ballistic at the notion of Obama getting dictator-like powers. In the same way that a dictator’s biggest fear is another dictator, so an authoritarian supporters’ biggest fear is…an opposite authoritarian. > > For an authoritarian, there’s no political heaven sweeter than being in charge and having unbridled power. And there’s no political hell worse than being stamped underfoot the boot of an opponent who has that power. Amen Brother!! (Says this atheist.) Thanks for letting me state my frustrations! I started many threads when I believed these believers could be reached. Many of those in my circle would be totally appalled if they ever saw Trump in his natural habitat speaking his truth without his handlers to rescue him. But I no longer believe they would change their view; they would just concoct greater and more elaborate justifications. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/112 "2021-03-31T04:43:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > I don’t feel this is accurate. Trump’s life story has been a string of events where people have handed him opportunities to easily succeed - and then Trump bungled things up and failed. > > Sure, but that’s not the _ **perception** _ his followers have of him. They see him as rich successful billionaire. They don’t bother going with a fine-toothed comb over his various business ventures, as if they are doing some audit of him. He is Mr. Big Rich Tycoon to them. Perhaps I misread Sherred’s post but I felt he was saying that Trump was an example of somebody who denied reality and was successful anyway. Actual success; not perceived success. Putting aside that issue, I feel your argument supports my own. Trump’s followers may have perceived him to be a great success, a genius, and a competent leader. None of this is true. And when several thousand of Trump’s followers denied this reality and attempted to act as if Trump was a great leader, reality slapped them in the face and now they’re being rounded up by the police. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/113 "2021-03-31T14:16:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Quite a bit of factual evidence of biology, basic science, sociological statistics etc. are ignored when inconvenient. It’s unfortunate when every apolitical institution chooses to become political. The lack of neutrality undermines the source. > > If you want to argue successfully with so-called Trumpians using facts then it will be of utility for those who present the facts to be free of any perceivable bias. I assume that you’re referring to those on left. I’ll admit that there are probably a few on the far left who blindly follow their own agenda regardless of the facts, but those people are very few in numbers. Maybe some of the more extreme PETA members, vaccine deniers who are also leftists, etc. But mainstream thought on the left doesn’t support this sort of stuff, and I’m not aware of mainstream leftists / Democrats that deny basic factual evidence. I’m interested in knowing what sort of things you’re referring to. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/114 "2021-03-31T15:22:15Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I’m interested in knowing what sort of things you’re referring to. Don’t bother, @octopus doesn’t believe in cites, he only believes in making unsubstantiated passive aggressive assertions. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/115 "2021-03-31T15:45:25Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Don’t bother, @octopus doesn’t believe in cites, he only believes in making unsubstantiated passive aggressive assertions. That’s just what someone indoctrinated in the SDMB hive mind would say. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/116 "2021-03-31T16:19:09Z")
Buzz buzz, if you know what I mean, and I know you do. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/117 "2021-03-31T23:21:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Velocity](#): > > > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > > > I don’t feel this is accurate. Trump’s life story has been a string of events where people have handed him opportunities to easily succeed - and then Trump bungled things up and failed. > > > > Sure, but that’s not the _ **perception** _ his followers have of him. They see him as rich successful billionaire. They don’t bother going with a fine-toothed comb over his various business ventures, as if they are doing some audit of him. He is Mr. Big Rich Tycoon to them. > > Perhaps I misread Sherred’s post but I felt he was saying that Trump was an example of somebody who denied reality and was successful anyway. Actual success; not perceived success. > > Putting aside that issue, I feel your argument supports my own. Trump’s followers may have perceived him to be a great success, a genius, and a competent leader. None of this is true. And when several thousand of Trump’s followers denied this reality and attempted to act as if Trump was a great leader, reality slapped them in the face and now they’re being rounded up by the police. Velocity did a good job of expressing what I was saying, but recall that the context was the topic ‘_does reality intervene and slap the delusional in the face?_’ (roughly speaking). And I was saying that Trump has never behaved as though he needs to care about reality, and his followers love that about him. Trump is delusional but reality hasn’t slapped him. He hasn’t----_so far_----paid any substantial price for his failure to think about the consequences of his stupidity and malice. Sure, his life is a lie. No intelligent person thinks that Trump is a ‘good businessman’ or even ‘fundamentally sane.’ But he carries on anyway as though everyone admires him. That “so far” is important, of course: we may find Trump paying some sort of price, eventually: not only legal, but also the loss of his followers as they begin to turn their eyes to bullies with actual power. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2021, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/118 "2021-04-01T00:25:10Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Trump is delusional but reality hasn’t slapped him. He hasn’t---- _so far_ ----paid any substantial price for his failure to think about the consequences of his stupidity and malice. As I disagree. Trump has had multiple business failures, two divorces, and a failed re-election. I feel reality has shown the difference between what Trump believes about his abilities and the actual level of his abilities. Sure, Trump appears successful on the surface. But most of that is, as I noted, because other people handed things to him. Every time Trump lost a fortune in business, his dad would give him more money so he could start over. Every time he got in trouble in politics, Mitch McConnell would step in and save him. ---
**Author:** ![Nayna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ebca7d/32.png) [@Nayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nayna)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2021, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/119 "2021-04-01T03:19:53Z")
Here’s an experience I once had involving my Trumpiest friend from college. She refuses to get the flu shot, and one year she absolutely had the flu. She had every symptom of the flu - cough, congestion, fever, chills. She may have ALSO had strep throat, because she went to a doctor, who diagnosed her with strep throat and prescribed an antibiotic. She was coughing and exhausted for two weeks afterward, all the while insisting that it was the strep. Many people told her many times that coughing isn’t a symptom of strep, that strep doesn’t last longer than a few days after the antibiotics kick in, etc. To this day she refuses to get a flu shot, and says it’s because she’s never had the flu. It’s infuriating. And I don’t think she’s lying. She has somehow been talked into her position, and there’s just no way to convince her that she’s wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Anyway … that’s what it’s like to argue with her about politics, too. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856/120 "2021-04-01T03:39:56Z")
_He_ didn’t pay any personal price for any of that (up till the election.) His businesses failed, so what? He still lived in a golden gilded penthouse above the Manhattan skyline, still had his personal jet, still got models and pornstars to come to his bed. _He_suffered not a bit. The divorces were not a failure for him, that was trading up for a younger model. The election is the first thing that he actually lost anything personally, and he refused to, and still probably refuses to accept that. Even still, he hasn’t actually paid any price for losing the election. He still lives in a mansion, has personal servants to bring him KFC and Coke (and coke). He never wanted the job of being president, only the trappings of the office, and he still has those anyway. It won’t be until or unless he is in actual personal bankruptcy, or prosecuted and send to jail, that he will actually be paying a price. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-argue-with-trumpers/938856.md?page=7)