# How to be a liberal in a Trump world **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 16, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840 "2016-12-16T05:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/61 "2016-12-17T19:53:06Z")
I don’t know, I’m in the same boat. As liberals we are like conservatives in the sense that we have biased media outlets telling us things to make us enraged because we feed off feelings of injustice. I know in the month since the election I’m getting tired of reading one sided news reports about how bad Trump and his administration will be. You get burnt out on outrage. So I don’t know. I think there are several very valid reasons to fear a Trump presidency. 1. Trump ran on unleashing the worst aspects of humanity. Racism, xenophobia, misogyny, authoritarianism. Who knows how much he will legislate those coarse urges. 2. Trump has shown neither the emotional maturity or cognitive skills necessary to handle the endless complexities of being president. This could result in major incidents like recessions or possibly military action. 3. Trump will appoint libertarian types and sign libertarian legislation that will shred the safety net, increase pollution, etc. Really, it seems like the best we can hope for is that Trump either gives up on these 3 things, or the checks and balances manage to reduce the damage. What positives will come from a Trump presidency? I honestly don’t know. I don’t think Trump can bring jobs back, we lost manufacturing jobs due to automation. We lost coal jobs due to advances in alternative technology. He can’t control health care costs, for the most part all he does is parrot right wing talking points. Nobody wants to actually do what it takes to reduce health care costs because that will enrage the 3 trillion dollar a year health industry. He can’t ‘beat the hell out of isis’ because nations with far less respect for human rights (like, I don’t know, the government of Syria) is having trouble beating them. If Assad’s administration which has one of the worst human rights records on earth is having trouble beating ISIS, I seriously doubt ‘bombing the hell out of them’ and waterboarding will make a difference. I seriously doubt he reduces income inequality, especially considering that people like Ryan are pushing for supply side tax cuts and this will be an anti-labor administration. This will increase inequality. So I really don’t know. I don’t know ‘what’ to be hopeful for if anything. I wish I did. I’m tired of being angry, disgusted and scared. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/62 "2016-12-17T20:24:22Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > .OK, that’s no good, forget that, let’s go with the opinion of someone who’s read his book. Better yet, ask the person who wrote his book. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yb2NHTka-gw/maxresdefault.jpg "Donald Trump's 'Art of the Deal' Ghostwriter Tony Schwartz Speaks Out | MSNBC") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb2NHTka-gw) > **[Donald Trump’s Ghostwriter Tells All](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all)** > > In “The Art of the Deal,” Tony Schwartz helped create the myth that Trump is a charming business genius. Now he calls him unfit to lead. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/63 "2016-12-17T21:15:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > […]He’s spent a lot of time working with architects, engineers, financiers, attorneys, municipal officials, etc., etc., etc. Working with? Yes. Paying them? No. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/64 "2016-12-17T21:23:49Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So I really don’t know. I don’t know ‘what’ to be hopeful for if anything. I wish I did. I’m tired of being angry, disgusted and scared. I am hopeful for a few ‘Nixon goes to China’ moments. Trump may legitimately be the only person in America that can convince certain Americans that Obamacare, for example, isn’t actually _that_ bad. In fact, it could be GREAT with this one little tweak [slaps on TRUMP label]. Like it or not, Trump has credibility with a large group of Americans that no Dem could ever reach. For example, after Prez Elect Trump made his initial Obamacare comments, all of the sudden my Dad tells me ‘you know, I’ve always said there were some parts of Obamacare that I liked.’ Well, he sure as hell never said that to me, despite the logical case I presented. Let’s hope that carries over on a larger scale. I also have to say, I’m encouraged by what I’m reading in this thread. I’ve always felt a kinship with The Dope since I started lurking in 1999, but I have a hard time recognizing it since this election. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/65 "2016-12-17T21:27:24Z")
Does it bother you that your father trusts a throwaway line from Donald Trump more than you? Especially when that throwaway line goes against what Trump has been saying for months on end? I guess that is a good thing, Trump has credibility with people that dems could never hope to reach. The more Trump backs off his worst promises, hopefully that’ll temper some of their rage. But I don’t know. Look at Paul Ryan and how quickly the right turned on him (Romney too). I could see them eating Trump alive if he backs off enough promises, rather than tempering their own views. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/66 "2016-12-17T21:30:55Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Working with? Yes. Paying them? No. Then perhaps you’d care to explain how it is that he’s managed to get all his hotels, office buildings and resorts built all these years. The involvement of these people is an ongoing process, and if you don’t pay them, they stop working. It would be impossible not to pay these people and still get projects built. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/67 "2016-12-17T21:32:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Then perhaps you’d care to explain how it is that he’s managed to get all his hotels, office buildings and resorts built all these years. The involvement of these people is an ongoing process, and if you don’t pay them, they stop working. It would be impossible not to pay these people and still get projects built. > **[USA TODAY exclusive: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/)** > > Among those who say billionaire didn't pay: dishwashers, painters, waiters > [@](#): > > At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others. > > In addition to the lawsuits, the review found more than 200 mechanic’s liens — filed by contractors and employees against Trump, his companies or his properties claiming they were owed money for their work — since the 1980s. The liens range from a $75,000 claim by a Plainview, N.Y., air conditioning and heating company to a $1 million claim from the president of a New York City real estate banking firm. On just one project, Trump’s Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, records released by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission in 1990 show that at least 253 subcontractors weren’t paid in full or on time, including workers who installed walls, chandeliers and plumbing. When a contractor works for him Trump would refuse to pay. His statement was ‘go ahead and sue me, I have better lawyers and it’ll cost you more in legal fees than you would’ve made if I paid you anyway’. The fact that this guy is a hero of the working class is so Orwellian. Social scientists are going to have a field day with trump. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/68 "2016-12-17T21:39:42Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The fact that this guy is a hero of the working class is so Orwellian. Social scientists are going to have a field day with trump. Since you seem to be one of the more and self reflecting “liberals” on this board… And you seem to despair at having little hope or optimism of a Trump presidency… Let me suggest something to you. How about at least WAITING for bad Trump shit to actually happen before you get upset? Rather than finding justifications that allow to presuppose such things will actually pass. Or just keep getting your panties in a twist about things that have not happened and may well not happen. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/69 "2016-12-17T21:55:01Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Does it bother you that your father trusts a throwaway line from Donald Trump more than you? Especially when that throwaway line goes against what Trump has been saying for months on end? Does it bother me? It drives me FUCKING CRAZY! 🙂 So I get the urge for primal screams. It’s just not my style. That’s why Obama was my guy. I’m proud of his response to the election. Every bit the adult in the room that I voted for. And yet, my twitter feed is full of liberals trashing Obama for yesterday’s presser. I just wish there were more progressives taking his lead. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/70 "2016-12-17T21:55:01Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Since you seem to be one of the more and self reflecting “liberals” on this board… > > And you seem to despair at having little hope or optimism of a Trump presidency… > > Let me suggest something to you. > > How about at least WAITING for bad Trump shit to actually happen before you get upset? > > Rather than finding justifications that allow to presuppose such things will actually pass. > > Or just keep getting your panties in a twist about things that have not happened and may well not happen. > > Your choice. The problem is that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Trump’s past behavior has shown him to be plutocratic, hostile to others, unstable, uninformed, emotionally labile, prone to playing on the worst in people, etc. We are scared because we have been informing ourselves on what Trump has been like (or at the very least, the worst aspects of him) for the last 30 years. The idea that he will radically change on January 20th is not realistic for a lot of us. The best hope is that the checks and balances hold up, and that Trump is a hands off president who lets his cabinet and VP do all the work while he is busy playing gold and holding rallies. Personally, if Trump spends his entire presidency trying to get rich and holding rallies while Pence does the actual work of president, I will be deeply relieved. This isn’t because a republican got elected. Most of us liberals wouldn’t be nearly this worried if McCain won in 2008 or Romney won in 2012. Trump is something different. If Trump had run as a democrat and won (Trump was a democrat during the Bush years) I’d still be worried. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/71 "2016-12-17T21:57:26Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > [USA TODAY exclusive: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/) > When a contractor works for him Trump would refuse to pay. His statement was ‘go ahead and sue me, I have better lawyers and it’ll cost you more in legal fees than you would’ve made if I paid you anyway’. > > The fact that this guy is a hero of the working class is so Orwellian. Social scientists are going to have a field day with trump. The people in the first paragraph appear to be lower level workers employed by companies Trump owns but whose day to day management goes on far below his level. Sort of like suing the owner of Starbucks because you got stiffed on some work the local manager of one his stores hired you to do. The instances cited in the _USA Today_ quote occurred at the time Trump’s enterprises were going belly up and he eventually found himself about a billion dollars in debt. He may have blustered a lot about better attorneys and so on to save face, but the reality is that he just didn’t have any money at that time. It’s to his credit that he was able to rebound and build a second multi-billion dollar fortune afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/72 "2016-12-17T21:59:54Z")
And yet, after rebuilding, _still_ didn’t pay them. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/73 "2016-12-17T22:05:04Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Most of us liberals wouldn’t be nearly this worried if… Most of you wouldn’t be nearly as worried if it weren’t for your propensity to exaggerate things far beyond their real world definitions. What you call racism and xenophobia is simply a very common sense desire for immigration laws to be enforced and to be protected from a terrorist element that has stated already its intentions to infiltrate the country by coming in with peaceful immigrants. What you call misogyny has nothing to do with hatred or distrust of women, it’s simply that a few have been insulted (along with plenty of men too, btw) or made the object of sexual interest. Like it or not, and proper or not, this is not misogyny. Etc., etc., etc. Come down to Earth and while you might still disagree with almost everything Trump does, at least you won’t be quivering from fiction-based fears. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/74 "2016-12-17T22:08:18Z")
You don’t actually _believe_ that line of drivel, do you? ETA: Cite that misogyny is just that a few have been insulted? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/75 "2016-12-17T22:12:35Z")
Also, Trump has refused to pay commissions to his own lawyers, and has, at times, not even paid minimum wage or overtime. [Cite](http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/282933-report-trump-has-refused-to-pay-hundreds-of-workers) ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/76 "2016-12-17T22:14:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The problem is that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Trump’s past behavior has shown him to be plutocratic, hostile to others, unstable, uninformed, emotionally labile, prone to playing on the worst in people, etc. > > We are scared because we have been informing ourselves on what Trump has been like (or at the very least, the worst aspects of him) for the last 30 years. The idea that he will radically change on January 20th is not realistic for a lot of us. The best hope is that the checks and balances hold up, and that Trump is a hands off president who lets his cabinet and VP do all the work while he is busy playing gold and holding rallies. Personally, if Trump spends his entire presidency trying to get rich and holding rallies while Pence does the actual work of president, I will be deeply relieved. > > This isn’t because a republican got elected. Most of us liberals wouldn’t be nearly this worried if McCain won in 2008 or Romney won in 2012. Trump is something different. If Trump had run as a democrat and won (Trump was a democrat during the Bush years) I’d still be worried. Like I said…either expect the worst and worry your behind off…or wait and see and perhaps save yourself a shitload of grief. I don’t care. Honestly, I think the liberal rendering of loins around here is funny as all get out. It’s like when Obama got elected and those crazy Repubs were just sure Obama was going to take their guns and put them in reeducation camps and crown himself king and the UN was going to take over and blah blah blah. The difference being…those Repubs were say 5 percent of your general Repub and the rest of us were eyerolling so hard our retinas got torn. But around here, the sky is falling Democrat is more like a large fraction if not an actual majority. Entertaining times ahead for sure (at least for me). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/77 "2016-12-17T22:44:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Trump had twice built multi-billion dollar fortunes by the time his father died in the late nineties. Another way to phrase this would be: Donald Trump, a liar, claims to have twice built multi-billion dollar fortunes by the time his father died in the late nineties. > [@](#): > > And Res was outspokenly in the tank for Hillary. Another way to phrase this would be: Res, who knew Trump considerably better than you do, decided Clinton would be a better president than Trump, and chose to campaign on her behalf. > [@](#): > > His own ex-wife, a former executive in his companies herself, once said you can’t win with him. Is that the one he raped? ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/78 "2016-12-18T04:43:40Z")
**Starving Artist** - I’d like to hear your thoughts on Tony Schwartz’s claim that Trump is a compulsive, self-serving liar. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/79 "2016-12-18T09:05:35Z")
For those choosing for some reason to discount Trump’s exemplary record of hiring female executives because one of them turned against him after a 19 year career, I give you these words from Trump’s daughter Ivanka: > [@](#): > > “At my father’s company, there are more female than male executives,” Ivanka said. “Women are paid equally for the work that we do and when a woman becomes a mother, she is supported, not shut out.” [Cite](http://nypost.com/2016/12/17/ivanka-is-the-wild-card-of-the-trump-presidency/) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840/80 "2016-12-18T09:17:19Z")
> [@Eddie The Horrible](#): > > **Starving Artist** - I’d like to hear your thoughts on Tony Schwartz’s claim that Trump is a compulsive, self-serving liar. He’s more of a politician than I thought .. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-be-a-liberal-in-a-trump-world/774840.md?page=5)