# "How To Break U.S. Immigration Law," by the Government of Mexico **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 3, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901 "2005-01-03T22:08:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/41 "2005-01-04T18:39:59Z")
Aah yes, the Zebra shows his stripes! šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/42 "2005-01-04T20:41:07Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Everything he says is a joke. In fact, itā€™s all so innocous and funny, all so self-parodying, that we JUST. DONā€™T. GET. IT. Someday, **Airman Doors,** perhaps you will learn that there are more forms of humor besides flatulence and Adam Sandler. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/43 "2005-01-04T20:48:06Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Someday, **Airman Doors,** perhaps you will learn that there are more forms of humor besides flatulence and Adam Sandler. This too is a joke, right? What youā€™re really saying is that you think **Airman** has a refined and nuanced sense of humor? šŸ˜• ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/44 "2005-01-04T20:53:47Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Someday, **Airman Doors,** perhaps you will learn that there are more forms of humor besides flatulence and Adam Sandler. Absolutely correct. In fact, there are two kinds of humor. Laughing at, and laughing with. Guess which kind your posts fall into? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/45 "2005-01-04T21:01:55Z")
For those opposed to illegal immigration from Mexico I suggest lobbying your elected officials to eliminate the billions in tax dollars in agricultural subsidies to Americaā€™s corporate farming industries. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/46 "2005-01-04T21:07:06Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > No there arenā€™t. Job desirability is totally dependent on wage; if you pay enough, Americans will do anything. Iā€™m sure that you can find lots of people who would be willing to pick fruit at $10/hr. The real question is do you want to pay the cost of fruit that was that exensive to harvest? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/47 "2005-01-04T21:09:04Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Iā€™m sure that you can find lots of people who would be willing to pick fruit at $10/hr. The real question is do you want to pay the cost of fruit that was that exensive to harvest? Buh-buh-buh-bingo. But we have a hard crowd to please with a tenuous grasp on economicsā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/48 "2005-01-04T21:27:54Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Iā€™m sure that you can find lots of people who would be willing to pick fruit at $10/hr. The real question is do you want to pay the cost of fruit that was that exensive to harvest? Well, how much of an increase in price are we talking about? What percentage of the price of, say, a strawberry is due to unskilled farm labor? It certainly isnā€™t all the cost, so thereā€™s no way that doubling the wages of the laborers would double the price of the fruit. Perhaps **GaWd** has a greater then tenuous grasp of economics and can give us a breakdown on the expenses (unskilled labor, skilled labor, chemicals, equipment depreciation, building depreciation, shipping costs, interest or rent paid on the farmland, profit for the farmer, retail markup, etc.) behind some random variety of fruit? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/49 "2005-01-04T21:44:07Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Well, how much of an increase in price are we talking about? > > What percentage of the price of, say, a strawberry is due to unskilled farm labor? It certainly isnā€™t all the cost, so thereā€™s no way that doubling the wages of the laborers would double the price of the fruit. Perhaps **GaWd** has a greater then tenuous grasp of economics and can give us a breakdown on the expenses (unskilled labor, skilled labor, chemicals, equipment depreciation, building depreciation, shipping costs, interest or rent paid on the farmland, profit for the farmer, retail markup, etc.) behind some random variety of fruit? Sorry, though my understanding of economics is not at issue, I havenā€™t run across any studies of thje market price difference between famrs that use illegal labor and those who use legal labor. Youā€™re just not going to find it. Letā€™s just say that a company not paying unemployment insurance, employment taxes, overtime, and legal above minimum wage(if not labor union rates), would cause a many-hundred percent increase in the price of whatever crop we are discussing. The advantages to the company using illegal labor are immense. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/50 "2005-01-04T21:44:24Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Well, how much of an increase in price are we talking about? From [here](http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1222&c=15): ā€œA 1996 study by an Iowa State agricultural economist concluded that ā€˜The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term.ā€™ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/51 "2005-01-04T21:47:04Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Letā€™s just say that a company not paying unemployment insurance, employment taxes, overtime, and legal above minimum wage(if not labor union rates), would cause a many-hundred percent increase in the price of whatever crop we are discussing. The advantages to the company using illegal labor are immense. Perhaps the above post will encourage you to re-evaluate some of your assumptions about the economics of illegal immigration. But, perhaps not. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/52 "2005-01-04T21:48:50Z")
That is 6% in Iowa. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/53 "2005-01-04T21:51:13Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > What do you mean by ā€œquasi-legalā€? The Okies and blacks were natives of the United States, and when the Irish and Chinese came in the 1800s, immigration policy was left up to the states. 99% of the people in those groups were in violation of no immigration laws. Youā€™re right. I phrased that poorly. More accurate to say that The California economy has always relied on an exploitable underclass of unskilled labor that was not in a position, either legally or economically, to complain about low wages and unsafe working conditions. As legal protections for domestic workers increased, it became necessary to find groups that were, for whatever reason, excluded from those protections to exploit. The reason that Californiaā€™s economy is currently so dependent on illegal labor is that we ran out of domestic groups we could treat like shit to facilitate our high standard of living. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/54 "2005-01-04T21:54:44Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Sorry, though my understanding of economics is not at issue, I havenā€™t run across any studies of thje market price difference between famrs that use illegal labor and those who use legal labor. Youā€™re just not going to find it. > > Letā€™s just say that a company not paying unemployment insurance, employment taxes, overtime, and legal above minimum wage(if not labor union rates), would cause a many-hundred percent increase in the price of whatever crop we are discussing. The advantages to the company using illegal labor are immense. > > Sam This all assumes that cheaper, imorted goods wouldnā€™t be available. If Mexican farm workers disappeared tomorrow, and labor costs really did skyrocket, Iā€™d expect to see agricultural firms go belly up before we saw produce double or tripple in price. The jobs would migrate to where the cheap labor was if the labor canā€™t migrate to where the jobs are. There might be a temporary period of adjustment as international producers dealt with seasonal issues, but there is nothing unique about the US wrt agricultural conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/55 "2005-01-04T22:01:57Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > This all assumes that cheaper, imorted goods wouldnā€™t be available. ā€¦ The jobs would migrate to where the cheap labor was if the labor canā€™t migrate to where the jobs are. ā€¦ And _that_ all assumes that any price increase due to using legal laborers (so far, the only cite that hasnā€™t been a total WAG has been 6%) would be greater then the shipping cost of importing _fresh_ fruits and vegetables. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/56 "2005-01-04T22:04:51Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Letā€™s just say ā€¦ Actually, if weā€™re completely ignorant about what weā€™re talking about, Iā€™d just as soon we _not_ say that, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/57 "2005-01-04T22:07:25Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > That is 6% in Iowa. Youā€™re a fucking peabrain. You really donā€™t have a tenuous grasp of economics; you have no grasp of it whatsoever. You said there would be a ā€œseveral hundred percentā€ increase in produce prices if illegal labor were stopped. Letā€™s assume you meant this statement to apply only in California, and letā€™s assume you meant a 100% increase. Iceberg lettuce costs $1.29 a head in California (I know, because I live there). Thus, you claim that stopping illegal labor would add at least $1.29 to the cost of a head of lettuce. For an increase of $1.29 to represent a 6% increase, a head of lettuce would have to cost $21.50. Please provide a cite where lettuce costs $21.50 a head in Iowa. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/58 "2005-01-04T22:10:50Z")
Does **Hyperelastic** ā€™s last post make absolutely no sense to anyone else? Or is it just me? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/59 "2005-01-04T22:17:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The reason that Californiaā€™s economy is currently so dependent on illegal labor is that we ran out of domestic groups we could treat like shit to facilitate our high standard of living. I donā€™t disagree that there is, and has been historically, a large amount of exploitation supporting our lifestyles. However, I would argue that the trend over the last 30 years or so has been toward more exploitation overall. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901/60 "2005-01-04T22:17:26Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > This all assumes that cheaper, imorted goods wouldnā€™t be available. If Mexican farm workers disappeared tomorrow, and labor costs really did skyrocket, Iā€™d expect to see agricultural firms go belly up before we saw produce double or tripple in price. The jobs would migrate to where the cheap labor was if the labor canā€™t migrate to where the jobs are. There might be a temporary period of adjustment as international producers dealt with seasonal issues, but there is nothing unique about the US wrt agricultural conditions. Iā€™d almost have to agree with you, but Hyperboyā€™s spluttering peabrained utterance makes no sense whatsoever. Weā€™ve already seen doublings and triplings in price due to domestic unavailability of Tomatoes in California caused by repeated storms in Florida. Whereā€™s the imported Tomato crop to prevent that? So it is definitely possible to see prices of domestically available products double and even triple in times of low supply. Sam [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-break-u-s-immigration-law-by-the-government-of-mexico/282901.md?page=4)