# How to correctly alphabetize a list? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 2, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490 "2007-06-02T16:21:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/21 "2007-06-07T20:28:27Z")
There are library rules for filing, which have evolved over the years, and are now influenced by what computers can and cannot do. There are two problems with the rule about ignoring “A”, “An” and “The” at the start of titles. One is that these words are not articles in other languages, so you would file “A la recherche du temps perdu” under “A”, not “L”. The second is how far you extend this rule to articles in other languages, where articles vary by by gender, case and number, and where articles may carry extra functions than they do in English (e.g., in Maori, articles tell you whether the noun is singular or plural – the noun itself does not change). With numbers, libraries used to file by the the number spelled out – but in the language of the title. For example, the movie “8 1/2” would have filed as “Otto e mezzo”. I once had to file a Croatian title starting with a number in a card catalogue, and it took me quite a while to rersearch what that number was in Croatian! Filing numbers as numbers is much easier. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/22 "2007-06-07T20:38:39Z")
[QUOTE=SmackFu] Occasionally you’ll see filing systems that have a separate “letter” for Mc. So it goes L - Mc - M - N. I would guess the Mac’s would go in there too. [/QUOTE] That’s how I learned to do it, pre-computer. ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/23 "2007-06-07T21:04:49Z")
I think I’ve told this one here before, but it bears repeating. This is based on whatever the internet lookup service is for CD titles, etc. At one time I had a CD by Peter, Paul and Mary which I was playing on my computer. After doing the usual lookup to get the album title, tracks, etc., the artist was listed as “Paul and Mary Peter.” Obviously, the software was trained to interpret the comma as a separation between last name and first name. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/24 "2007-06-07T22:35:33Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] How about some examples? [/QUOTE] _Lost_ has episodes called \*\*? \*\* and **… and found** Put them in an alphabetical list of episodes. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/25 "2007-06-07T22:43:24Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] It doesn’t have to do with how common it is, it has to do with the fact that articles are not significant part of titles. It can be difficult to remember whether it is _Bonfire of the Vanities_ or _The Bonfire of the Vanities_, _American Tragedy_ or _An American Tragedy_. [/QUOTE] I think the potential problem is nicely illustrated [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A_Tale_of_Two_Cities_title_page.gif) [QUOTE=Peter Morris] _Lost_ has episodes called \*\*? \*\* and **… and found** Put them in an alphabetical list of episodes. [/QUOTE] Surely ‘…and found’ would just be listed under ‘and’? And ‘?’ would be at either the start or the end of the list. If no other non-alphabetical entries are present, as in the case of Lost, then it’s not hard to find a place for that one. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/26 "2007-06-07T22:52:21Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] _Lost_ has episodes called \*\*? \*\* and **… and found** Put them in an alphabetical list of episodes. [/QUOTE] If I were alphabetizing them, I would list them where I think someone would be most likely to look: under [Question mark] and “and”. Where would you put them? There was a rock group called _The The_. I would probably list them as “The, The.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/27 "2007-06-07T22:57:10Z")
Then of course there is: [\* the Gaul.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix_the_Gaul) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/28 "2007-06-07T23:06:24Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] It doesn’t have to do with how common it is, it has to do with the fact that articles are not significant part of titles. It can be difficult to remember whether it is _Bonfire of the Vanities_ or _The Bonfire of the Vanities_, _American Tragedy_ or _An American Tragedy_. [/QUOTE] A good example of this from the movies would be the movies _The Unforgiven_ and _Unforgiven_. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/29 "2007-06-07T23:18:22Z")
Surely that’s a counterexample? In that particular case, the “The” is significant. ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/30 "2007-06-08T11:37:35Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] There was a rock group called _The The_. I would probably list them as “The, The.” 🙂 [/QUOTE] There’s a group called !!!. [(No, really.)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%21%21%21) Where do music stores put their CDs? And was one of their members abused by a reference librairian as a child? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/31 "2007-06-08T15:11:16Z")
The Thais have a hard time with alphabetizing in English. If a title begins with A, An or The, then A or T is what it goes under. Also, walk into any music store, and the Western singers are all alphabetized by their first names, which is the Thai style. So you would look under F for Frank Sinatra, N for Norah Jones, etc. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/32 "2007-06-08T15:18:59Z")
[QUOTE=Ichbin Dubist] There’s a group called !!!. [(No, really.)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%21%21%21) Where do music stores put their CDs? And was one of their members abused by a reference librairian as a child? [/QUOTE] Darn. I was going to come in and proffer that example. (!!! is pronounced “chick chick chick,” if anyone is wondering.) Another one from the 60s would be “? and the Mysterians” (famous for their hit “96 Tears” and “Can’t Get Enough of You Baby,” which was covered by Smash Mouth.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/33 "2007-06-08T15:20:49Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Then of course there is: [\* the Gaul.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix_the_Gaul) 🙂 [/QUOTE] Yes, a nice joke, but, just in case there might be someone who isn’t very familiar with the subject, there is a difference in spelling and pronunciation between Asteri **x** and asteri **sk**. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/34 "2007-06-08T15:23:09Z")
[QUOTE=Ichbin Dubist] There’s a group called !!!. [(No, really.)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%21%21%21) Where do music stores put their CDs? And was one of their members abused by a reference librairian as a child? [/QUOTE] And do they come before or after […And You Will Know Us by the Trail of Dead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...And_You_Will_Know_Us_by_the_Trail_of_Dead)? ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/35 "2007-06-09T22:16:46Z")
How would you alphabetize the title of [this book?](http://www.windyhillbooks.com/si/09353.html) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/36 "2007-06-09T22:49:43Z")
[QUOTE=Sternvogel] How would you alphabetize the title of [this book?](http://www.windyhillbooks.com/si/09353.html) [/QUOTE] “A” there is not being used as an article in association with a noun, but as a word. Therefore I would alphabetize it as “A”. ---
**Author:** ![Phanes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@Phanes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phanes)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/37 "2014-07-18T10:39:40Z")
I know this is a very old thread, but I found this in a search looking for information about different ideas about alphabetizing titles and leaving “The” at the beginning. I had to register to post, so this is my first contribution. I was searching for this to find the best way to fix up my ID3 tags in my MP3s to make it easier for the car’s stereo to read about 41 gigabytes of MP3s off a USB drive and organize all the artists, albums and titles so everything is consistent and easy to navigate. In a case like this, having so many titles beginning with “The” might make it very cumbersome to find “The Whatever” in such a long list on a car’s file navigation screen. As one who was schooled in the 70s and 80s, I was taught to put “The”, “A”, and “An” at the end of the title, after a comma. But in recent years, I’ve been seeing more and more places where “The” is alphabetized at the beginning of titles and it’s been driving me insane. I’ve tried alphabetizing “The” at the beginning of titles and it every case it just sticks out like a hangnail. I just can’t do it. I could probably accept “A” and “An” at the beginning of a title, but never “The”. I can’t think of very many times when I’ve been annoyed by seeing “A/An” at the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/38 "2014-07-18T11:47:10Z")
There is no binding rule, and alphabetizers do so however the please. Phonebooks for example, use a system of their own. Most title listers alphabetize without articles (The, A, An), with “The Big Sleep” alphabetized in the Bs. Even then, though, exceptions need to be recognized, to allow for the city of The Dalles, Oregon to be listed under T, not D. Which then raises the question of whether The Dalles Cafe ought to be in the Ds right after The Daisy Cafe, or the Ts right after Thalia’s Cafe… There is no single, simple answer. When someone decides to make an alphabetical list, they try to consider the users of the directory, and how the list will be most useful to them. All that is expected is that it remain consistent. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/39 "2014-07-18T15:31:57Z")
a zombie or no i like to leave off the articles when it seems unimportant. though i’ve recently made two entries to allow for both. Dragnet on radio had all the episodes (except the first season) and the 1951 tv series (except the first episode) be titled “The Big …”. it made for serious distraction to view the list. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490/40 "2014-07-18T15:36:30Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > a zombie or no > > i like to leave off the articles when it seems unimportant. > > though i’ve recently made two entries to allow for both. > > Dragnet on radio had all the episodes (except the first season) and the 1951 tv series (except the first episode) be titled “The Big …”. it made for serious distraction to view the list. The Dragnet theme is still used in commercials for Tums – I saw one last night. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-correctly-alphabetize-a-list/406490.md?page=3)