# How to create a fascist military state in a “democracy” without anyone catching on. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 1, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389 "2005-10-01T23:24:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Osip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4491bb/32.png) [@Osip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Osip)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/21 "2005-10-02T13:37:00Z")
Fascist state in a democracy? We are a democracy now? Who’s damn fault is that? How killed the republic? In fact, I tend to believe a pure democratic form of government would be easier to evolve into a Fascist State. Democracy is Majority rules, minority pays. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner. 1. I am all for allowing people to suffer or excel based on their choices they make in their lives, up until it effects my life. These “victimless crimes” can effect society from a safety and economic standpoint. 2. Undetectable plot of rig elections, So, you or someone you know has uncovered this plot? Please of please share with us in detail. 3. Your talking about the war on Iraq I hope (which is I am sure many can debate as to your accuracy) If your Lumping Afghanistan in this generalization your off base. 4. Demoralized majority? A bit of a stretch. Hard work is not such a bad thing, hard work can elevate people from poverty. Provided those who work hard can also grasp financial responsibility. There are very very few true “less fortunate” souls who need societies help. Most of the others have made poor choices in life and now suffer for it. 5. propagating lies? you imply a republican controlled government spin machine. Lets see, Forged documents about someone’s national guard duty, “dozens killed in the superdome with rapes and robbery aplenty” yet 6 bodies are pulled from there, one suicide, one overdose, 4 natural causes. Politicians using false and sensationalist words to grab headlines and fire up the masses. Gulags, Pol Pot, Concentration camps, all about Gitmo. Have we started taking US citizens who disagree with the government, relocating them to horrible conditions or have them executed? (Gulags and Pol Pot) have we chosen a minority group and summarily moved them and dispatched with them? (concentration camps). Please realize when you are bitching about something wrong, ALL should be called into account, not just those you feel opposed to. siphoning away our money? Yep there is a man who is glad to take by force, my money. You have one too! Government loves to tax, make the tax structure difficult to understand, then spend the money poorly. Nice to gripe and bitch, but offer solutions to be debated. Personally, there is much wrong with this country, No one political party is to blame, there is enough mud for all. My suggestions, advocate upgrading the education system, promote personal responsibility onto the individual, Hold accountable the money spend my our politicians. Two cents, your welcome to it. Osip ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/22 "2005-10-02T13:37:42Z")
Here. Visit [this site](http://zapatopi.net/afdb/) . They are right in tune with what you posted. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/23 "2005-10-02T16:03:05Z")
> [@ggurl](#): > > _Drivel_ You’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/24 "2005-10-02T16:33:56Z")
> [@Osip](#): > > 1. Undetectable plot of rig elections, So, you or someone you know has uncovered this plot? Please of please share with us in detail. But, it’s undetectable!! The fact that it can’t be detected proves that it exists. See? Now, how silly do you feel. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/25 "2005-10-02T19:47:58Z")
You forgot step 6 - post mocking and derisive comments on a stupid rant on a message board from some drug-addled dolt whose idea of fascism is when she can’t get wasted out of her mind even more than she already does. And step 7 - Profit! Regards, Shodan Charter Member of the Vast, Right Wing Conspiracy[sup]TM[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/26 "2005-10-02T19:48:19Z")
> [@ggurl](#): > > Just the fact that 1 in 138 Americans is in jail or prison should be enough to scare and shock everyone, but we’ve gotten so used to a system that creates a rightless (and often voteless) underclass that nobody is raising too big a stink about it. Why should this shock me? What’s the right percentage of Americans in jail or prison? ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/27 "2005-10-02T19:57:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why should this shock me? What’s the right percentage of Americans in jail or prison? Well, compared to other countries, it’s huge. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_prison_population): > [@](#): > > The United States has the highest numerical prison population of any reporting world nation. Russia, which is currently in the process of releasing a number of improperly incarcerated citizens, has a rate of 644 per 100,000, and a 2002 total population of around 900,000. For the most part, the U.S. rate is five to eight times that of the Western European nations and Canada. The rate in England and Wales, for example, is 139 persons imprisoned per 100,000 residents while in Norway it is 59 per 100,000. The prison population in China was 111 per 100,000 in 2001 (sentenced prisoners only) [4]… Whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing is yours to judge. It sure does cost a lot of money, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Ink\_a\_dink\_a\_dink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ec9cab/32.png) [@Ink\_a\_dink\_a\_dink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ink_a_dink_a_dink)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/28 "2005-10-02T20:21:09Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > This is such a bullshit argument. I’m sure the children of alcoholics suffer too, but no one’s seriously suggesting criminalizing alcohol consumption any longer. We as a nation learned the lesson that prohibiting consumption of alcohol doesn’t make alcohol or the desire to consume it mystically disappear. One hopes that eventually we’ll learn that lesson with other intoxicating substances too. > > Another bullshit argument. If intoxicating substances were legalized and the price (and quality) subject to regulation and control, violent crimes to obtain funds for them would be, if not eliminated, certainly reduced. How many muggings are there to finance alcohol purchases? 'Scuse me - slight hijack here. Alcoholics are just as much junkies as those who do heroin, crack, ice, meth, crystal, coke, et al. It’s the only legalized drug - besides nicotine - whch the govenment knows, as does the scientific community, that there are individuals out there who simply are unable to handle alcohol. For some, it’s a symptom of their own body chemistry, i.e. Native Americans have been found to have a physical limitation when it comes to processing alcohol, which is why there is such a problem with alcohol abuse in that community. Same for - get ready for it - the Irish. (I’m serious!) And me. I can’t drink. I can not drink for years, not crave it, not want, it, have it in the house next to me, be in a bar, what have you, but once the first drink is taken, then chemical changes to my body, brain, metabolism and all other processes change so drastically that I end up having some real problems. Like, hm, shall we say DUI? Or two? Or three? Took three to convince me, and og be thanked that no one was ever hurt in my escapades other than me, and once, a brick wall. But has anyone ever been mugged for a drink? You bet your sweet ass they have. And been panhandled for it. And seen people drinking mouthwash for a bump they desperately need, and so on. Don’t think just because it’s legal, there’re no problems with it. We may have evolved a bit, but there is plenty of scientific evidence that says that there will always be those who cannot process alcohol safely or like the rest of the genetic make-up. Can’t wait for those Star Trek:TNG days when Synthahol will be the rage. Sorry for the hijack. Respectfully, Inky ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/29 "2005-10-02T20:51:10Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > This is such a bullshit argument. I’m sure the children of alcoholics suffer too, but no one’s seriously suggesting criminalizing alcohol consumption any longer. We as a nation learned the lesson that prohibiting consumption of alcohol doesn’t make alcohol or the desire to consume it mystically disappear. One hopes that eventually we’ll learn that lesson with other intoxicating substances too. As a person who’s father is a good friend of Bill Wilson, you can eat my dick. > [@](#): > > Another bullshit argument. If intoxicating substances were legalized and the price (and quality) subject to regulation and control, violent crimes to obtain funds for them would be, if not eliminated, certainly reduced. How many muggings are there to finance alcohol purchases? And that changes the fact that the law as it stands makes drugs illegal how? I don’t disagree with you. If Philip Morris or RJR-Nabisco were able to produce marijuana cigaretts, they’d be cheaper and most likely of a higher quality than the current ‘street’ stuff. And the government could tax the shit out of it. And the FDA could regulate it for purity and consistancy. And when Hell freezes over, we’ll help Satan build a snowman. ---
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/30 "2005-10-02T21:28:59Z")
**ggurl** , I think the problem here is that your conclusion doesn’t necessarily follow your premise. I’m no Bush lover, but even I don’t think George Bush is a fascist. I’d be surprised if he could even _define_ fascism. Maybe it would be beneficial to avoid the term fascism in your argument? Because most people associate it with Nazis and their particular symbols. As if fascism could only occur in the US if swaztikas were flown, and a leader with a funny mustache and a German accent was in power. But IMO your premise is correct in this sense: Fascism is more about tactics to achieve total power than it is about a specific ideological goal. As you note, a scapegoat (or a few scapegoats) are a necessary component. Rigged elections are always helpful, if need be (i.e., the means should be in place, even if it is not always utilized). The military should be exalted, and used to fight a war that demands blind patriotism. The need for propaganda goes without saying. All of these things exist now in the US, to some degree or another. But exactly when it crosses the line into fascism??? But the other thing is that it could be possible to drift into a fascist mindset without realizing it. In other words, it might be an _unintended_ consequence of current policies - but not necessarily a _deliberate_ engineering by President Bush, or his administration, to institute fascism (as we perceive it). Tough to prove either way, but IMO, diligence is always preferable to automatic dismissal. So I don’t blame you for your concern. But good luck getting very far with your argument as written. The term fascism should really be retired. It no longer allows serious debate. I don’t know if full-blown fascism will ever occur in the US, but I think we will miss or dismiss the warnings - in part because of the reactionary response to the term itself. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/31 "2005-10-02T21:32:49Z")
> [@Ink a dink a dink](#): > > But has anyone ever been mugged for a drink? You bet your sweet ass they have. And been panhandled for it. And seen people drinking mouthwash for a bump they desperately need, and so on. I never said that no one was ever mugged for a drink. What I’m saying is that if one were to compare the number of violent crimes committed to obtain alcohol to those committed to obtain other illegal intoxicants, I’m willing to bet that the alcohol-related crimes are miniscule in comparison. > [@fushj00mang](#): > > As a person who’s father is a good friend of Bill Wilson, you can eat my dick. No thanks. And hey, I’m sorry if your dad was an abusive drunk. It’s terrible that any child is abused for any reason, including at the hands of a drunken parent. If your dad in fact abused you, do you as the survivor of that abuse believe that alcohol should be illegal? And please, the “won’t _someone_ think of the children?” argument can be used with just about anything. Adults kill children with guns; are you up for banning guns? How about knives? Automobiles? Duct tape? > [@fushj00mang](#): > > And that changes the fact that the law as it stands makes drugs illegal how? It changes it not at all. So what? You don’t dispute the idea that legalizing “drugs” would result in safer drugs and lower crime rates. The fact that the current political climate doesn’t allow for the possibility of legalization has no effect on that idea. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/32 "2005-10-02T21:37:23Z")
I didn’t want to start a new thread, but I want to know: Does the U.S. really have “camps” to put dissenters? at some time in the future. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/33 "2005-10-02T21:53:28Z")
Yeah. We call it “Wyoming”. Why do you think Cheney is always thought to be there? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/34 "2005-10-02T22:01:27Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > I didn’t want to start a new thread, but I want to know: Does the U.S. really have “camps” to put dissenters? at some time in the future. No. But we have camps where we incarcerate people who have no human and civil rights and no legal status. According to Hannah Arendt, that’s the main thing. As long as this stays confined to non-U.S. citizens it can’t become a camp for “dissenters.” If we started to house U.S. citizens there, then there’s nothing preventing the camps from becoming that. That’s the problem. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/35 "2005-10-02T22:09:32Z")
And of course if the two-headed oxmen from planet Zocmaer show up, we’re all fucked. ---
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/36 "2005-10-02T22:12:26Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > No. But we have camps where we incarcerate people who have no human and civil rights and no legal status. According to Hannah Arendt, that’s the main thing. As long as this stays confined to non-U.S. citizens it can’t become a camp for “dissenters.” If we started to house U.S. citizens there, then there’s nothing preventing the camps from becoming that. That’s the problem. Jose Padilla is a US citizen. At what point should it become a cause for concern? ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/37 "2005-10-03T05:15:43Z")
> [@zeeny](#): > > Jose Padilla is a US citizen. > > At what point should it become a cause for concern? I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/38 "2005-10-03T13:08:40Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > No. But we have camps where we incarcerate people who have no human and civil rights and no legal status. Huh. No rights at all? And here I am thinking that the Supreme Court ruled that detainees have the right to challenge their captivity in court. I must be a real fool, because that sounds like a human and a civil right. And on the general rate of incarceration in the country: I have never found it that difficult to not break laws. Am I really that abnormal in this respect? It is not as if we have arbitary, confusing laws that mandate, for example, that everyone must wear purple shoes on the eighth day after a full moon, upon penalty of five years in prison. This being the case, I think the fact that we have a lot of people in prison says more about our society and the people who live in it, rather than the laws themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/39 "2005-10-03T13:24:22Z")
“How to create a fascist military state in a “democracy” without anyone catching on…” But we _have_ caught on! Thanks to your vigilance, the whole sordid plot has been exposed. That was a close one, though. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Lynne\_kilii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lynne\_kilii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynne_kilii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389/40 "2005-10-03T18:15:57Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > GGurl, according to your profile you’ll be 38 years old this December. That’s way too old to be thinking like some clueless 20 year old spouting conspiracy theories. Hey! I’m twenty! And vaugely insulted. Thankfully I’m not clueless, but I’d put the clueless age around 17. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-create-a-fascist-military-state-in-a-democracy-without-anyone-catching-on/324389.md?page=3)