I think those of you who are saying the OP isn’t responsible missed this post of hers. The person who told her to be half an hour early isn’t even her boss, so really has no say at all. Wasn’t there recently a law that was put in force,which said if it takes a certain amount of time before a shift for the worker to prep to begin work (like donning protective gear etc.) that the worker MUST be paid for this time, and set harsh penalties for employers who flouted this law? On doing a search, I find that this is so. It gives an example about janitors setting up their carts before their shift, and not being paid for this, and says that such things won’t be tolerated at the end of the article.
This thread has gotten a little sidetracked. :eek:
PRR is being somewhat over the top, imho, but some of the paid help’s comments are coming off as rather selfish.
Different jobs have different needs. Various employers may have different rules. We adapt if we’re smart. And a job may not be very fulfilling to some people. So what? Change jobs or your attitude, you’re making hard on others.
Should a person be compensated for time spent “prepping” for work? (I don’t mean that 80s dance, either.) Hell yeah! Should an employee make sure they are at work, READY TO WORK, when they are required? Hell yeah!
Attitude goes both ways. Sometimes the boss is a dick. And that’s really hard for some to deal with. Sometimes co-workers are dicks. And that, too, may be hard for one to handle. Sometimes, YOU’RE the dick. In someone else’s eyes. And THAT is truly hard to take for some of us.
There are plenty of responsible people out there who get to work in the nick of time, do their job great, are respected and trusted by their employers, and are great employees. I do not in any way suggest that people of this sort need to be told what time to show up to work. They are dependable and that is all an employer can expect. Sounds like most people in this thread think of themselves in this way, and that’s fine.
However, there are a great many people who look at work as no more than punching a clock. If they’re late, they don’t offer apologies – even if other workers are inconvienced by the tardiness – but offer excuses. Once in a while workers just don’t show up at all, no call or nothing. For these people, I think it is entirely reasonable for a boss to say: Look, work starts right at 8:30. That’s what time you start getting paid, that’s what time you start doing work. That doesn’t mean that’s the time you show up. If you cannot be trusted to arrive promptly and start working immediately, you need to get your shit together and start showing up earlier so that you can start work at 8:30.
The way I see it, this second-hand dictat passed on by a colleague that someone ought to show up at 8am does not mean that someone will be expected to start doing their job at 8am, or even expected to arrive at 8am. But there’s legions of folks out there who can’t get their ass in gear to be depended upon to start work at 8:30 who need to be directed like little children. Tell em show up at 8:00 and probably they’ll be there in time for an 8:30 opening.
I supervise a few people in a professional setting and fortunately I don’t have to go to these lengths, but I understand why other bosses would have to issue stupid rules like this. I have even worked a number of jobs where I got rules like this, obeyed them with a minimum of grumbling, and after showing myself as dependable and punctual, my good bosses cut me some slack.
So, if you think that it is horribly unreasonable for bosses to tell workers to come in early so they can start work on time, what do you suggest that bosses do to workers who are not punctual? Pay them for the time for which they have to show up early, so that they are better compensated than a good, punctual worker? You want to reward the discourtesy of habitual lateness? Or do you suggest that you just fire them, and have to search around for another worker? It seems far more reasonable to tell someone to stop messing around and start showing up to work early so they can start work on time, rather than fire them for being 5 or 10 minutes late.
(Of course, I do not mean to scold the OP on these points. So far as I know, the lateness was just a one time thing, but as I’m sure everyone knows, even most incompetents hold jobs at one point or another, and I mean to focus my comments on how to deal with those slackers. But the point is well-taken that if the OPs boss wants to tell her to start coming in early so she can start work on time, that’s the boss’s prerogative, not a coworkers. Yet, I can hardly fault a coworker for being ticked about having to cover for another staffer without the courtesy of a phone call.)
Of course, an employer can suggest that a worker come in early if they haven’t figured out how to gauge their time correctly, but ultimately, if punctuality is that important, the employer would be smart to let that employee go. For every employee that needs a Nanny State Boss dictating how to spend their free time, there are 10 who want the job and are capable of coming to work on time. I swear, if management spent less time micromanaging and more time actually doing something, the world would be a better place.
Somewhat, sure, but only if I’m not being taken literally. I’m perfectly serious about Kalhoun’s logical shortcomings, assuming we take Kalhoun literally:
Are you literally about one minute early to work? Then every working day for 4 years, you’d have about 1,000 consecutive working days that you arrive one minute early for work? It simply seems logical to me that most commutes (mine, for sure) are not accurate to within a minute. If I leave my apartment at exactly the same time every day, my 55-minute commute door-to-door takes 50 to 60 minutes 99% of the time, so I have to budget 60 minutes travel time to make sure I get there punctually. That will also, by definition, mean that there are a few dozen days per year that I’m five minutes early, which is fine with me. (But outrageous to Kalhoun.)
My point about Vegas, if you really need me to spell it out for you, is that managing your commute so that you come in precisely on time requires great devotion to punctuality AND literally unbelievable amounts of good luck. If you’re that lucky, you’d be much better off to quit your job and play the slots in Las Vagas Nevada, where they operate many famous gambling establishments.
What I suspect from your posts here is that punctuality isn’t a trait you’re fanatical about, and that you’re willing to plan to be a minute early, leave enough time to arrive in good faith a minute early if no act of God occurs, and that you’re willing to call a late train, unusual traffic, unannounced heavy construction on the freeway, a parade on a cross-street, etc. an “act of God” and breeze in ten minutes late when anything of any kind occurs that you didn’t predict. Very few people can plan their commutes down to a single minute, in my experience, and you’re either late or early by over a minute no matter how precise you are. Since it’s unacceptable to you to ever be early, I assume it’s okay with you to be late sometimes.
I most certainly did. Meant it, too!
This post is full of so many unreasonable assumptions that I don’t think Kalhoun needs to even respond.
I’m never late to work. I arrived (when I worked in an office) anywhere from 20 minutes to one minute before my start time, depending on the pace my personal life was running at on a given day. But that’s not the point. The point is that it’s none of your business what time I get to work unless I’m 1) late or 2) you’re paying me. Since you only hire people who are willing to work for free, I’m confident our career paths won’t cross. Your logic, with all your time calculations means nothing to me unless you’re paying me to abide by it.
And like your calculations regarding my commute (which you know precisely zero about), your Vegas reference is meaningless as well if you don’t frame it. I assumed you meant that there are no hard-and-fast start times for employees in Nevada. A perk that would be lost on me, as I like to keep to a schedule.
And you aren’t reading carefully. The whole point of this exchange is to make you understand that threatening to fire employees who don’t work for free is 1) probably illegal, 2) likely to surround you with spineless suck-ups (which may be precisely your goal), and 3) earn you zero respect amongst your thinking employees.
The times I have been late in the last decade can be counted on one hand. Yes, it’s OK for me to be late sometimes. Not only would I not work for you, but I’d have reported you to the labor board a long time ago. Your micromanagment style guarantees you nothing but lots of whispering behind your back.
And you’ve got a helluva nerve allowing yourself to get to work five minutes early when your employees are required to arrive earlier than that.
I know, I should learn to preview, but I have to say that I found this:
seriously obnoxious and borderline offensive.
And, to respond in brief to PRR, I think that Kalhoun probably also gets to work a few minutes early some days - and may well time things such that (as a previous poster suggested) she walks through the door and sits down ready to work at one minute until her work day begins. That’s what I do quite often anyway - I get off my subway at anywhere between 8:55 and 9:05, it’s a two minute walk to my building even in the worst weather. I generally take the remaning 5 to 10 minutes (allowing 3 minutes to take the elevator to my floor and get to my desk) to chat with the security guys in the lobby or buy a cup of hot chocolate or to watch a few mintues of news coverage on the ginormous TV in the lobby or read the last two pages of my Subway Book O’ The Day.
In other words, if I’m a little early I take a few minutes for myself before I start working. I’m still always in my office at work at 9:15. I’m just not generally there much before that time because my work begins the moment I walk through the elevator doors.
It’s managers that insist people come in for what amounts to unpaid overtime for no good reason other than to make sure they’re not late that I object to.
If being there precisely at a certain time is vitally important to the company, then by all means require people to be there 15 minutes early to ensure they’re in place at the proper time. Just pay them for it or schedule shifts to begin prior to that time. If you’re having a problem with people either being flat out late or spending the first 10 - 15 minutes of their shift screwing around instead of working then you need to address that with those people. If they can’t or won’t manage to be ready to begin at the start of their workday, then by all means don’t promote them, don’t give them raises and/or bonuses, or even fire them. That’s perfectly reasonable and you won’t hear a peep out of me. That is, in fact, the way it is in my office. There are some people who are consistently late. They don’t get promoted. They don’t get raises. In a couple of particularly-egregious instances they’ve been let go.
Some of them were fairly irked when I was promoted over them despite being with the firm for less time and they were informed that the reasons included the fact that I am always on time and dependable (even though I’m never early either). In one case, that was the sole reason.
I live in the fear that one day I will have to have a job where my employers or co-workers give a shit what time I come in to work.
I have a nightmare that my employer will be cut from the same cloth as PRR.
Then I will fling myself under the wheels of a bus. And speaking of busses, assuming I catch mine, I can plan within the minute when I will arrive in my office in the morning. However, lots of times I don’t catch it and get to work 20 minutes later. Or earlier. But, as I said, nobody gives a shit.
I think I’ll go bake some cookies for my boss.
That’s a professional attitude. You arrive at work 10-20 minutes early, so that you can grab your cocoa and you are ready to start. Thus, if you have a 15 minute delay, you wouldn’t be more than 5 minutes late. You’re not “at work” early, but you leave yourself a cushion.
Most of my adult life, I’ve worked in a salaried position, including managing other salaried employees. I really, really wish that every adult behaved as one, but they don’t. The “clock-watchers” are why mgmt have to set a standard workday (9-5:30 or 8:30-5 with 30 minute lunch). That’s why, after a standard is set and they find ways around it (come in and log in just on time, then go get breakfast and coffee, or the “I was only out 10 extra minutes for lunch”; I know, every day for the last two weeks and why do I have to watch you like a child?), you have to slap down that behavior. And then you have to document every little thing, because the clock-watcher will be the first to sue for unlawful termination. Not surprisingly, when there are no clock-watchers around, when you have adults behaving as professionals, things are a bit more relaxed.
Oh, I fully understand the frustration. I’ve had management positions - although there just isn’t enough money to make me do it again. I don’t even mind having stringent set schedules for the workday - I only get irked when that schedule includes time for which employees are not being paid. That’s a terrible way to handle the problem of lateness (or unpreparedness at the start of the workday). I’m a trained, experienced adult professional. If my manager doesn’t treat me like one, I’ll find an employer who treats me as one.
That’s fine…if you feel like it and if your schedule permits. Lots of people have before-school meetings with teachers (I know I did), errands, or a million other things that can be done in a 1/2 hour. That 1/2 hour belongs to ME.
Okay, so **Kalhoun ** asserts that “If you arrive at 8:29 every day and begin working at 8:30, you’ve fulfilled your end of the agreement.” That’s quite true, and I agree with it completely.
Where I have problems is in gauging commuting time. If, as many have suggested, you arrive x minutes early, and instead of going into your place of business, you retreat to a local coffee shop, or public park near your place of employment, and spend some pre-work time guzzling coffee or reading or doing your nails, and then you show up at work on time, you’re fine with any reasonable employer.
What I don’t get is that you’re early to work. You’re not AT work, but you’re presumably steps away from work. That precious half-hour, or fifteen minutes, or whatever it is that you’re using to do personal stuff, is still getting used up. It’s not as though you can sleep late on it, or linger over breakfast on it, or accomplish anything requiring a lot of time or concerted thought—it’s pretty much extra time for you to goof off for a few minutes, time for which you’re not getting paid, nor do you think you should be getting paid for that time.
My question is: Is it really so valuable that you get that cup of coffee at Starbucks and consume it there until 8:29, as opposed to bring it into work at 8:25 and tell anyone who gives you work, “Hang on a minute, I’m drinking my coffee, and I’m not on the clock for a few more minutes”? I couldn’t care less either way which choice you make, but I’m wondering why the difference between these two states of mind are so vital to you that you’re getting into a snit over it? You’re not being taken advantage of if you drink the cup at Starbucks while not getting paid from 8:25 through 8:29, but you’re being exploited by The Man if you drink it at your desk during those four minutes?
You still don’t get it. If an employer requires you to be at work at a certain time, you should be paid. Period. If an employer wants you to show up 1/2 hour early so you’re not late, it should cost him that period of time in wages.
If I choose to come in early and fuck off for a half hour, that’s my choice. If I choose to stop at the cleaners, sleep 1/2 hour longer, tear off a quickie at the No-Tell Motel, or make out sime bills, and then dash to my desk with seconds to spare, that’s my business because it’s my time. And as long as you’re not paying me, I’ll decide where and how I’ll spend that time.
Maybe I’m sick and tired of looking at my office. Maybe I hate the assholes I work with. What difference does it make to YOU where I spend that time? If you’re not paying me, it can’t be that important to you.
If you set the schedules up so that one late-arriving employee is enough to shut down the whole business, that’s your fault. Just as employees should plan their commutes so that they leave a cushion for mishaps, employers need to plan for those instances when “shit happens” to employees.
One way is to have overlapping shifts.
Another way is have managers prepared to pick up the slack.
The commuting time nonsense is one reason why I have been vocal in this thread. Depending on where you live, your overall level of sacrifice can double if you leave too early. There are only two times when you will see me arrive in the office. One is at the “appointed” time: 9:00 AM. The other is my early-bird-gets-the-worm-time: 7:00 AM. Rarely will you see me pop in between these times. Why? Because I have a thirty minute commute if I leave home at 6:30. I have a thirty minute commute if I leave at 8:30. But I have an hour long commute if I leave between 7:00-8:30. That hour sitting in traffic is not trivial to me. It translates into more wear on my car, more gas that I’m guzzling, and less energy I have to tackle the day with.
Unless the employer is providing my transportation, I don’t think it’s their business how I plan my commute.
I don’t either. I think that if an employee is on time consistently, it doesn’t matter if he’s 12 seconds early or 12 days. None of my goddamned business when an employee shows up, as long as he’s on time.
This varies from job to job, of course. Some jobs I would care about more than others, and I carefully articulate this at the beginning. If I’m hiring someone to do four hours of cleaning (which I do) I don’t really care if she starts at 4 and ends at 8, or if she starts at 4:20 and ends at 8:20. Either is fine, and I let it be known that I don’t much care about the exact start time.
But if I hire someone to teach a class (which I also do) it’s very important that the teacher NEVER be late. Whatever it takes, they need to take special care to see that they’re in the classroom promptly at 8 o’clock. I’ll make this point at their interviews, and if I don’t get enthusiastic agreement, I hire someone else.
I have a problem, though, with teachers who get students pissed off because she keeps them waiting for a consistent five to ten minutes almost every class, and when I ask about this, get told, “Oh, the bus ran into traffic,” “Oh, that day it rained and the highway was superslow,” or “Oh, that was the day my girlfriend asked me to drop her off at work, and I got lost getting back to my regular route” or some dumb shit. Excuses don’t matter, they don’t impress me, they don’t mitigate the lateness. It’s your responsibility to be on time, and there are no good excuses for habitual, persistent lateness. Get an alarm clock. Get a better car. Get laid the night before instead of in the morning. I don’t care. But don’t assume your excuse for being late means very much to the person you told you would be on time to do your job, because it doesn’t mean shit to me.
The part I really hate is the conversation about why lateness matters, or how to plan your commute better to arrive at work on time, or getting into any of the personal nonsense. I want you here on time, and I don’t care how you accomplish that massively difficult task. Is there a part of “on time” that you have problems comprehending? If I never have another conversation about punctuality with another employee again, I’ll be too happy.
So basically you were shitting on Kalhoun earlier for no reason? Because I fail to see how what you’re saying now differs from what she’s been saying all along.
I seem to recall you telling me I should be fired for not giving you a free half hour every day…even though I show up on time.
I really think you need to be fired now, and I’ll buy you that bus ticket to Vegas for a 1% cut of your future earnings at the slots.
How’s that workin’ out for ya? Do you really believe that someone can tell you that they’ll NEVER be late? Do you really think NOTHING on Earth trumps on-time arrival at a TEACHING position? I understand promptness. You don’t seem to understand reality. Do you fire a teacher for a flat tire? How about a 300-car funeral? An accident? A babysitter who doesn’t show up on time? I haven’t been late to work in years, but it’s been sheer luck. Shit happens. Management needs to deal with it. If an occasional tardy throws your world into a tailspin, you need to take a hard look at your management skills.
Actually, excuses DO matter to people who live in the real world. Habitually late and occasionally late are two different things. The “1/2 hour early” thing with no pay not only has no impact on unavoidable tardiness, but it makes you come off as a self-important tyrant.