# How to deal with (sub)urban sprawl? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831 "2009-05-09T05:57:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/201 "2009-05-18T20:42:44Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I think most people in the United States simply like having their own automobiles, _mswas_. I know I do. Of course auto manufacturers did conspire to bring down public transportation in a large number of cities. The automobile provides me with a degree of independence I could not get with public transportation. If I lived in New York City I could probably do without a car. Even in Germany which had better public transportation than any other place I lived I had a car. > Odesio If somebody needs a car often enough for ANY reason so that they “have to” end up owning one, unless they are dirt poor they are GOING to use it for just about EVERYTHING anyway. Case in point. Parking lot vultures. Watch any big parking lot. Its so much damn easier (and usually faster) just pull in and park on the outskirts of the filled area. But no, MOST people will spend inordinate amounts of time and effort trying to park as close as possible, usually passing up dozens if not hundreds of perfectly usable spaces. Even in perfect weather. If most people cant be bothered to walk for less than a minute for a distance of a couple hundred feet at best, what makes you guys think these same folks would walk for say a half hour one way a mile or two if ONLY they had good sidewalks to walk on? Heck, look at a walkers meca like New York city. Despite the aggravation of the subway, taxis, or cars, a buttload of people still use them. Why? According to you guys, everything you need in new york city can be WALKED to. Then why all the riders? My hometown/county is basically one giant suburb. But a fairly walker friendly one with good weather only second to someplace like southern california. You can pick anyplace here in the county that is NOT rural, and you have plenty of places like stores, supermarkets, resteraunts, bars, fast food, parks … within walking distance and not have to cross/skirt highways of death either. If someone told me that starting tommorow I’d have to walk everywhere for my weekday needs in this town, I would NOT be freaking out about it. It would be perfectly workable for me. But guess what? Even here, virtually nobody WALKS anywhere. Its a tiny fraction that do, and for most of them its because they have no choice. Virtually nobody WANTS to walk any significant distance. A least the vast majority of the hundred thousand or so folks here. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/202 "2009-05-18T20:44:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > In Latin American and African countries there are people who drive around in vans picking people up and driving them to a certain destination. It’s easier to get around Puerto Rico than most American states. I don’t understand why this doesn’t work here. Because it’s usually illegal. All jurisdictions in North America have restrictive regulations concerning the licensing and qualifications needed to convey paying customers. As you might imagine, the taxi, private coach and municipal transport industries have a vested interest in using the power of government to squash competition. This is a problem pretty much everywhere, in and out of cities. Locally, one business model that has sprung up is airport ferrying services, getting people from points in and out of Toronto and Hamilton to their airports, which have neither good public transit (and essentially no public transit of any kind outside of the very limited coverage of GO) nor reasonably priced cab access, and the existing stakeholders do everything in their power to use the law to crush them. Such services have to walk a very narrow and ever-shifting path between not being cab companies (which is denied to them by not allowing them to have cab licenses) and not being bus companies (which requires an order of magnitude more in the way of licensing, organizational, and maintenance effort.) This is especially appalling in the Greater Toronto area because the public transit here is so notoriously bad, but similar rules and the ensuing problems exist almost everywhere. And airport shuttles are the ones they take it EASY on, because they really have no choice or else people couldn’t get to the airport. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/203 "2009-05-18T20:57:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Anyone or anything different from you? Again, show me the evidence. I don’t live in a suburb of Rick clones. > [@](#): > > Suburbs, by their nature, are designed to isolate people. Each house is completely isolated from it’s neighbors. Each subdivision is isolated from any other subdivision. Living and working in a major city, you are just exposed to a much broader and more diverse range of people. First of all, dude, you claim to have gone to school, right? “Its” means “belonging to it,” “It’s” means “It is.” You’re a valuable poster and you seem like a standup guy so I really am not trying to be a dick, and it’s not worth a pitting so I’ll say it here; this is Grade 2 stuff and you screw it up in almost every post. Please. I’m sorry, it drives me crazy. I don’t mean to go all picky but you and Der Trihs are the worst offenders (among posters who add anything to the board) and it’s really distracting. As to the topic, “suburbs are designed to isolate people” is not an answer to my question. If I lived in the city in a particularly soundproof apartment would that make me isolated? We’ve all heard about how cities can be lonely and isolating in themselves because people just can’t possibly interact with that many people, because of their impersonal nature. And I’ll bet a thousand dollars I come into meaningful direct contact with more people, and a greater variety of people by any reasonable measure, at work, than you do. That’s just a function of a person’s job, not where their house is. Again, I’m speaking from the perspective of someone who’s lived in both, and I didn’t know any more people in Toronto than I do in Burlington. Cities are famous for people ignoring other people; sociologists will tel lyou that a human being can only meaningfully interact with a certain number of people and will tend to disregard the others. The teeming masses of Manhattan are not your friends. Now, all that’s just my opinion, but then, all you’ve said is just your opinion, so we’re left with you making a claim you haven’t backed up with evidence. If you want to define your term a little more clearly than just “anyone different from you” and then provide evidence, go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/204 "2009-05-18T21:17:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Because it’s usually illegal. Yes, I know, and that’s unfortunate. > [@](#): > > All jurisdictions in North America have restrictive regulations concerning the licensing and qualifications needed to convey paying customers. As you might imagine, the taxi, private coach and municipal transport industries have a vested interest in using the power of government to squash competition. Right, and this prohibits people in more sparsely populated areas from getting to work because of this. I’m not talking about areas where taxis and municipal transport industries exist. I am thinking of my somewhat rural hometown that could’ve benefitted from a small coach going up and down main street. > [@](#): > > This is a problem pretty much everywhere, in and out of cities. Locally, one business model that has sprung up is airport ferrying services, getting people from points in and out of Toronto and Hamilton to their airports, which have neither good public transit (and essentially no public transit of any kind outside of the very limited coverage of GO) nor reasonably priced cab access, and the existing stakeholders do everything in their power to use the law to crush them. Such services have to walk a very narrow and ever-shifting path between not being cab companies (which is denied to them by not allowing them to have cab licenses) and not being bus companies (which requires an order of magnitude more in the way of licensing, organizational, and maintenance effort.) Right, and this is one of the more serious problems with sprawl. Loosening up the restrictions on commercial transit is one thing that could be done to deal with (sub)urban sprawl. > [@](#): > > This is especially appalling in the Greater Toronto area because the public transit here is so notoriously bad, but similar rules and the ensuing problems exist almost everywhere. Yeah, it doesn’t work like that here in New York, but it does in most of the nation. Sure the Transit authority here is quite powerful and the T&LC is quite comprehensive but there are still gaps filled by anyone with a car. Like the guys that sit outside Target or Home Depot with a minivan. > [@](#): > > And airport shuttles are the ones they take it EASY on, because they really have no choice or else people couldn’t get to the airport. Right. If these issues could be resolved I’d be much more comfortable with sprawl. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/205 "2009-05-18T21:23:02Z")
**billfish678** I just walked more than a mile. About half of it I was carrying a 25lb toddler. The lack of walking even when it’s available is a pathological illness in our culture. Driving to the 7/11 that’s a few blocks away horrifies me. It’s why our society is so unhealthy despite unprecedented levels of wealth. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/206 "2009-05-18T21:37:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **billfish678** I just walked more than a mile. About half of it I was carrying a 25lb toddler. Congratulations. > [@mswas](#): > > The lack of walking even when it’s available is a pathological illness in our culture. Driving to the 7/11 that’s a few blocks away horrifies me. It’s why our society is so unhealthy despite unprecedented levels of wealth. Be that as it may, it doesn’t change the fact that those of us who have a car don’t want to walk a mile to the supermarket and back for our weekly shopping (with our six tear-prone plastic shopping bags in hand on the way back). Sure, we’d all the thinner if we did. Similarly, if everyone were perfectly moral crime wouldn’t be a problem. So? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/207 "2009-05-18T21:40:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Be that as it may, it doesn’t change the fact that those of us who have a car don’t want to walk a mile to the supermarket and back for our weekly shopping (with our six tear-prone plastic shopping bags in hand on the way back). Sure, we’d all the thinner if we did. Similarly, if everyone were perfectly moral crime wouldn’t be a problem. So? I’m not talking about walking a mile. I am talking about where the option to walk a quarter mile exists, and you’re not going to carry six bags you’re just going for a bag of chips and a slurpee. Your argument is banal. We talk about solutions to crime as well. Just because people are going to keep doing something doesn’t make it not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/208 "2009-05-18T21:48:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I’m not talking about walking a mile. I am talking about where the option to walk a quarter mile exists, and you’re not going to carry six bags you’re just going for a bag of chips and a slurpee. Welcome to “Not everyone does things the same way as you.” Some of us, even, have bought more than a bag of chips and a slurpee in a trip. Sometimes even _two_ slurpees, even! I use my trunk a lot and never have less than four bags when I buy food; often more. And quite literally nowhere I want to go is within a quarter mile. The _closest_ thing is a mile away, and that’s just my pharmacy. Yes, sprawl is a direct contributor to high gas comsumption and weight gain because it requires car use. The solution is _not_ to tell the lazy asses who live in suburbs to hoof it, perhaps dragging their destinations closer to them through sheer force of will. > [@mswas](#): > > Your argument is banal. We talk about solutions to crime as well. Just because people are going to keep doing something doesn’t make it not a problem. My argument is that your argument, criticing people for the extremely natural tendency to use a car as opposed to walking ten miles to the supermarket and back, is ludicrous. Much like arguing to end crime by moralizing everyone. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/209 "2009-05-18T21:51:46Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Welcome to “Not everyone does things the same way as you.” Some of us, even, have bought more than a bag of chips and a slurpee in a trip. Sometimes even _two_ slurpees, even! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I use my trunk a lot and never have less than four bags when I buy food; often more. And quite literally nowhere I want to go is within a quarter mile. The _closest_ thing is a mile away, and that’s just my pharmacy. So you never drive to 7/11? I’m not talking about going to the grocery store for a heavy load of food. Again this is getting into, “My behavior is totally justified!”, emo territory. Not interested in the slightest. > [@](#): > > Yes, sprawl is a direct contributor to high gas comsumption and weight gain because it requires car use. The solution is _not_ to tell the lazy asses who live in suburbs to hoof it, perhaps dragging their destinations closer to them through sheer force of will. _bails straw_ > [@](#): > > My argument is that your argument, criticing people for the extremely natural tendency to use a car as opposed to walking ten miles to the supermarket and back, is ludicrous. Much like arguing to end crime by moralizing everyone. OH!!! I see, you’re arguing with a straw man that has nothing to do with what I actually said. Got it, carrion. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/210 "2009-05-18T21:58:49Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So you never drive to 7/11? I’m not talking about going to the grocery store for a heavy load of food. Again this is getting into, “My behavior is totally justified!”, emo territory. Not interested in the slightest. Never a 7-11. Though I have remembered that I _do_ actually drive a short distance (that could be walked) to make regular purchases. To buy gas for my car. I suppose if I _carried_ my car there and back, I’d be _really_ fit, in no time! > [@mswas](#): > > _bails straw_ > > OH!!! I see, you’re arguing with a straw man that has nothing to do with what I actually said. Got it, carrion. I guess I can’t figure out what you think your argument was, 'cause all I saw was emo whining about how the lack of walking even when it’s available is a pathological illness in our culture. Oh, wait, I see it now. It’s a _strawman_. “When it’s available”, heh. As if that’s a significant percentage of a suburbian person’s driving. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/211 "2009-05-18T22:02:13Z")
I’ll respond to you when you have something to say. This babbling thing isn’t interesting. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/212 "2009-05-18T23:11:43Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I’ll respond to you when you have something to say. This babbling thing isn’t interesting. It’s spelled ‘rebutting’ - but it’s okay, I’m sure somebody’ll come along and agree with you presently. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/213 "2009-05-18T23:15:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So you never drive to 7/11? I’m not talking about going to the grocery store for a heavy load of food. Again this is getting into, “My behavior is totally justified!”, emo territory. Not interested in the slightest. 7-11? You shop at 7-11 with its inflated prices and small (albeit convenient) selection? Why would I take 10 minutes to walk the quarter mile to 7-11 when can I use that same 10 minutes to drive the 3 miles to the supermarket? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/214 "2009-05-18T23:19:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > It’s spelled ‘rebutting’ - but it’s okay, I’m sure somebody’ll come along and agree with you presently. You haven’t even really addressed what I was saying. I don’t mind disagreement. Just next time if you are going to address things I didn’t say, don’t quote my posts when you do it. It makes things less confusing. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/215 "2009-05-18T23:22:53Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > 7-11? You shop at 7-11 with its inflated prices and small (albeit convenient) selection? No I shop at the Dominican deli with its inflated prices and small (albeit convenient) selection that is right across the street. But clearly many people shop at 7-11 as evidenced by its continued operation as a business. > [@](#): > > Why would I take 10 minutes to walk the quarter mile to 7-11 when can I use that same 10 minutes to drive the 3 miles to the supermarket? If it takes you ten minutes to walk a quarter of a mile then you are in seriously bad shape, and improving your quarter mile time is a worthy reason to take the walk. This is another in a long line of people not responding to what I am saying. People DO drive to 7-11, your personal anecdotes do not change this. I’m actually thinking of my sister when she lived in Littleton Colorado and a particular occasion. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/216 "2009-05-18T23:27:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Living in a suburb of Des Moines offers comparative advantages over living in Bumfuck, Iowa. Every metropolitan region is a single economic organism. Even if you don’t work **in** the city, you work at a job that would not exist at that location if the city were not next door. You also have access to all the city’s cultural amenities. It’s only fair you should pay city taxes – and have a city vote. Hah, I don’t even live in the state of Missouri but I pay STL city taxes because I work in the city. And I get no vote. But I love the zoo and the park so I’m ok with it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/217 "2009-05-18T23:31:23Z")
mswas, I find almost all your arguments utterly specious. I hear these handwaving arguments about the evils of the suburbs over and over again, and usually they are offered with no evidence, as though they are self-evident. For example, you say the suburbs are less efficient. You cite increased energy costs and travel times. You say suburban dwellers impose externalities on others as a way of denigrating their choices. I have yet to see any proof of this. I will grant you that the average suburban home uses more energy. I am not at all convinced about transportation costs. When I lived in the city, I had to travel a fair distance to accomplish just about anything. I still had my car, and used it just about as much. In the suburbs, I live within a mile of just about every kind of store and service I need. I rarely travel further than that except for traveling to work (and I used to have to drive to work when I lived in the city, too). As for externalities, my car was broken into a half dozen times when I lived in the city. Multiple insurance claims, which everyone had to pay in the form of increased overall premiums. Since I’ve lived in the suburbs, it has never happened again. I’ve had friends who live in the city who have been robbed and had their apartments broken into and vehicles stolen. What is the density of police officers in the city as a percentage of population, and how does that compare to the suburbs? Why isn’t cost of living a good measure of efficiency? Cities are more expensive to live in (and would be even more expensive if the population pressure wasn’t eased by the existence of the suburbs). That means if you want to maintain the same standards of living for the population, you need to pay them more. For example, teachers in New York City earn a median salary of about $55,000 per year, as compared to about $44,000 for the national average (and I’ll bet the average is even lower if we excluded all the large cities). That means it costs more to educate children in the city, or the children get worse education because they can afford fewer teachers. That’s inefficient. And you can’t separate economics from energy, because clean energy is simply a matter of money. Then there are the externalities from concentrated pollution in the cities, from the added cost of disaster plans, evacuation plans, increased risk of disease and pandemic, terrorism, etc. And let’s not forget the cost of the congestion, and the fact that the mass transit you like is generally heavily subsidized. And you keep trying to divorce ‘efficiency’ from ‘desire’. But you can’t. Other than a haunch of meat and a cave to live in, everything we have and do is pretty much optional. Life is about desires and choices. If it weren’t, I’d suggest that you get rid of all your windows. After all, they’re energy inefficient. Whatever space you live in, I’m sure you could live in one half as big. I spent two years in college living in a 350 sq foot bachelor apartment, and another year living in a 200 sq ft dorm room. Really, that’s all you need isn’t it? I hope you’re not being ‘wasteful’. As for the isolation of the suburbs - that’s a laugh. Around here, the stores in the city core put bars over their windows when they close. Children are kept off the streets, especially in the evening. You can’t walk more than a block or two without being accosted by a panhandler or feeling uncomfortable by the gangs of menacing teens. The last time I rode the transit at night with my daughter, some teens jumped on the train, being chased by a uniformed security guard. Then they stood beside us and chatted in an never-ending stream of profanity while giving everyone around them a ‘screw you’ attitude if you dared make eye contact. I lived in the city for several years, and never met a single one of my neighbors. I live in the suburbs now, and kids play hockey in the street, I know all my neighbors, we share tools and have barbecues together and our kids are friends. My wife and daughter just got back from a bike ride around the neighborhood - something you don’t want to do for fun in the inner city. But we’ve got lots of green space here, bike paths, a small lake with geese and ducks on it, and life is great. Isolation my ass. If you like living in the city, more power to you. If I were 25 years old and single, I might do it again. I’m not going to criticize your choices, and I would suggest that maybe you shouldn’t criticize mine. Or if you are going to, bring a better set of arguments, because your current ones are severely lacking. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/218 "2009-05-18T23:33:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You haven’t even really addressed what I was saying. I don’t mind disagreement. Just next time if you are going to address things I didn’t say, don’t quote my posts when you do it. It makes things less confusing. Dude, just stop. Just. Stop. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/219 "2009-05-18T23:53:32Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I’m not talking about walking a mile. I am talking about where the option to walk a quarter mile exists, and you’re not going to carry six bags you’re just going for a bag of chips and a slurpee. > > . You dont understand the concept of economics and population density do you? If you have a suburb, which has a low population density BY DEFINITION, and you are ONLY asking someone to walk a quarter mile at most, how many people do you think are going be visiting that 7-11 on a daily basis, EVEN IF everybody and his brother is on a walking kick (which they arent)? I await your detailed calculations and economic analysis. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/220 "2009-05-19T00:01:07Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Right. If these issues could be resolved I’d be much more comfortable with sprawl. Why are you worried about sprawl if it isnt affecting you? I dont like the idea of big city living, but I aint loosing any sleep because some folks choose to live that living hell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831.md?page=12)