# How to deal with (sub)urban sprawl? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831 "2009-05-09T05:57:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/121 "2009-05-16T12:17:40Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Suburbs try to be all things to all men and usually end up pleasing no one. yeah, I guess thats why nobody lives there anymore :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/122 "2009-05-16T13:29:57Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Suburbs try to be all things to all men and usually end up pleasing no one. They please me. I very much enjoy living in a suburb, or this one, anyway - much more than I enjoyed living in the urban area of a big city (Toronto) or a moderately sized city (Kingston.) I live in a suburb of a very large metropolitan area, Toronto-Hamilton, which has at least five and a half million people by the most conservative of definitions, and about half its residents have elected to live in suburbs. A significant percentage of the ones who aren’t in suburbs are in shitty low-income developments and would probably leave the city in three seconds if they had the money to. And this is an area where the city proper is reasonably safe and livable, too. In places where it’s worse, like Detroit, the ratio of suburbanites to urbanites is way higher. Detroit’s MOSTLY suburb. Lots of people seem to be pleased by suburbs. Your statement is objectively, provably false. You’re missing one of the absolutely central points, the one point the anti-suburb crowd just refuses to acknowledge; **lots of people want to live in suburbs**. If they didn’t, there wouldn’t be any suburbs. All the handwaving and blather in this thread seems to ignore that a lot of people, millions of people, enjoy living in suburban environments. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/123 "2009-05-16T14:36:17Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Lots of people seem to be pleased by suburbs. Your statement is objectively, provably false. > > You’re missing one of the absolutely central points, the one point the anti-suburb crowd just refuses to acknowledge; **lots of people want to live in suburbs**. If they didn’t, there wouldn’t be any suburbs. All the handwaving and blather in this thread seems to ignore that a lot of people, millions of people, enjoy living in suburban environments. There ya go. Also, it seems that the pro-urban folks don’t understand that their environment produces nothing. In their ‘perfect’ world where everyone lived in the city, half of the population would be commuting **out** of the city for work. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/124 "2009-05-16T14:55:26Z")
From [Half Sigma:](http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/05/its-less-expensive-to-own-a-car-part-ii.html), who actually makes some good points if you ignore his obvious bones to pick: > [@](#): > > Liberals who hate cars ignore the fact that personal transportation has been a great boon for society, and that before automobiles, people who could afford it owned horses. (Does anyone know where I can find horse ownership statistics for nineteenth century America?) I live in Manhattan, so I know what it’s like to live in a place where most people, even most upper middle class people, don’t own a car. > > It has been argued by some that not owning a car saves you money, but my argument is that the opposite is true. Manhattan, the only place I’ve ever lived where it’s reasonable for people to make do without a car, is ridiculously expensive compared to everywhere else. It’s a lot less expensive to live somewhere else and own a car, than it is to be carless in Manhattan. A one bedroom apartment costs $3000/month. A $700/month apartment someplace else would free up $27,600/year to cover the cost of car ownership. On top of that, the local income tax rate is around 10%, higher than any other place in the nation…I’ve previously suggested two reasons why dense cities are so expensive: (1) dense cities create transportational and space inefficiencies; and (2) dense cities attract liberal voters who elect liberal politicians who enact dumb laws which increase the cost of living. Maybe there is some third or fourth reason as well. Until someone can demonstrate a place where it’s reasonable to be carless and it doesn’t cost a fortune to live there, one has to assume that such places are inherently economically inefficient. > > It was pointed out in a comment that jobs in New York City pay more money, so this makes up for the higher cost of living. But clearly, the reason why New York City jobs pay more is because if New York City jobs paid the same as jobs in smaller cities with low costs of living, no one would choose to live in New York City! ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/125 "2009-05-16T18:12:04Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > The more spread out communities are, the more resources are needed for utilities,miles and miles of gas,water and sewage piping,all of which must be regulary serviced and repaired > > Miles and miles of telephone lines,power cable and optic cable with all of the provisions of the above plus the further electricity has to travel the more loss there is .(Also true for water,not sure about gas) > > Emergency services have a much greater range to practically cover,needing more manpower,money and transport. > > Also police and ambulance reaction times will be drastically increased resulting in more medical emergency deaths and a lower success rate in apprehending perpetrators. You are making the wong assumption that all services come form city hall. They don’t. Even in the city they don’t. It is not an efficiante or practial way to distribute resourses. That is simply not an issue. [QUOTE=Lust4Life] Many people work in service industries where tele commuting is just not an option,you work where the customers go whether you work in a shop,resteraunt bar,cinema,theatre,museum,sports venue,whatever. [/quote] You betcha. And those same service industries exist out side of the city so that the city can get their goods. [QUOTE=Lust4Life] Tele schooling is not as good as children attending actual physical schools with other children to interact with and socialise with if you want a well rounded individual at the end of it. [/quote] I agree, I pay taxes for a bus system I can’t ride, and I pay taxes for schooling children that I don’t have. What do you see that is wrong with small community schools? [QUOTE=Lust4Life] Suburbs seem to be the worst of all worlds with all of the problems of urban life without the benefits of genuine rural life, none of the economys of scale of urban life or the real benefits of community. [/quote] I don’t believe there is that much community in the city. Everyone ignors each other is what I see. Seems that that is the only way people can stay sane. Some questions - 1. What problems do you think Suburban life has that are the same as Urban life? 2. What do you think are the benifits of Rural life? 3. Do you think that there may be a need for a living style between Rural and Urban? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/126 "2009-05-16T18:12:45Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > There ya go. Also, it seems that the pro-urban folks don’t understand that their environment produces nothing. In their ‘perfect’ world where everyone lived in the city, half of the population would be commuting **out** of the city for work. This statement doesn’t make any sense. Where do you imagine these people will be commuting to? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/127 "2009-05-16T18:50:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > This statement doesn’t make any sense. Where do you imagine these people will be commuting to? Farms. If everyone lives in the city, someone has to drive out to the country to harvest the crops, kill the cows and transport said items into the city. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/128 "2009-05-16T18:57:14Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Farms. If everyone lives in the city, someone has to drive out to the country to harvest the crops, kill the cows and transport said items into the city. And don’t forget power plants, factories, quarries, airports, oil refinieries and probably a dozen other things that typically are NOT located in the “big city”. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/129 "2009-05-16T19:09:29Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And don’t forget power plants, factories, quarries, airports, oil refinieries and probably a dozen other things that typically are NOT located in the “big city”. Yep. And lets not limit it to dozens. Lets make it pretty much everything. People that suggest or want all urban environments are not able to look past the StarBucks on the corner. They don’t grow coffee in the basement BTW. And yes you folks that would suggest that suburban or rural living is not necessary for YOUR life style deserves one of these. :rolleyes: Fence off your city and see how many people try to get in. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/130 "2009-05-16T19:21:19Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Fence off your city and see how many people try to get in. Didnt Kurt Russel play in a movie about that very thing ?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/131 "2009-05-16T19:45:00Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Cantilever would take even more sunshine and light away from the streets. This is already an issue in cites and addressed with development codes. I don’t see how this would work. In New York most roofs are sunken behind a wall of sorts. The panels wouldn’t have to be any higher than the wall. > [@](#): > > I live outside of ‘town’. Town has a free bus system paid for by sales tax that I pay every time I by anything in town. Ok > [@](#): > > To those of you that argue for a more urban lifestyle. > > Who do you think supports that? You got a cow in your kitchen? No one has a cow in the suburbs either, so this is irrelevant. We are talking about surburban sprawl not exurban/rural life. > [@](#): > > A better design is happening. All by itself. Local business centers and tech centers and people that can work from home. The city is dead. No point in it. None at all. The city is not dead at all, this is an ideological statement that flies in the face of reality. The city is vibrant and flourishing, so clearly it serves a very real function. Online interaction is no substitute for coming face to face with intelligent dynamic people on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/132 "2009-05-16T19:51:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You may wish that, but people don’t want it. If they did, such projects would be more successful. Have you read even the most cursory history of why cities are designed the way they are now? They were designed around promoting cars. You make it sound like it was a conscious choice to build these big box mall suburbs on the part of its denizens, that’s not the case at all. They were trying to get out of overcrowded cities in a time where there was filth in the streets. The fact that Hollywood makes film after film about the soul sucking of life in the suburbs should tell you something, particularly since these films are made by people who have LIVED in the suburbs. I don’t know how many kids I’ve known from the suburbs who talked about how much they HATE it there. Sure it’s anecdotal, but I heard it a lot more in the suburbs than I did growing up in a rural community, or growing up in the city. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but this is not an answer to my challenge, which was to your claim that “All the trends I see show suburbs being depopulated and people moving into the cities.” Tell me; is the population growth in the City of Boston the result of people moving from its suburbs into the city? Well that’s something we can examine together. I am not going to play the, ‘now go be an expert suddenly or you’re wrong game’. I cited lots of evidence, now cite yours and we’ll compare. > [@](#): > > Well, to answer my own question, it isn’t. The City of Boston itself is in fact growing only very slowly - between 2000 and 2007 it added only ten thousand people, a growth rate of less than two percent (that’s significant growth??) while the metropolitan area grew by three percent. Right, you picked the slowest growth city from my list to pick on, naturally. > [@](#): > > Miami, FL? The metro area grew eight percent from 2000 to 2008. The city grew by 5 percent. Why would you think population’s shifting from suburbs to city? 5% is pretty significant growth for an established city. That’s A LOT of growth. I admit I thought it because I’ve read articles that stated it and I believed them. If you want to go and actually examine the trends with me I am more than happy to do that, but our conversation is unequal as I am the only one looking up facts. **ITR Champion** came up with some interesting stuff though. I also posted many articles showing that certain suburbs couldn’t GIVE their houses away. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/133 "2009-05-16T19:54:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > They please me. I very much enjoy living in a suburb, or this one, anyway - much more than I enjoyed living in the urban area of a big city (Toronto) or a moderately sized city (Kingston.) I live in a suburb of a very large metropolitan area, Toronto-Hamilton, which has at least five and a half million people by the most conservative of definitions, and about half its residents have elected to live in suburbs. A significant percentage of the ones who aren’t in suburbs are in shitty low-income developments and would probably leave the city in three seconds if they had the money to. And this is an area where the city proper is reasonably safe and livable, too. In places where it’s worse, like Detroit, the ratio of suburbanites to urbanites is way higher. Detroit’s MOSTLY suburb. Detroit’s a company town where the company has been steadily dying for years. Terrible example of anything. > [@](#): > > Lots of people seem to be pleased by suburbs. Your statement is objectively, provably false. This is obviously true, so I’ll voice my agreement that it not be brought back against me in Straw Man form later. > [@](#): > > You’re missing one of the absolutely central points, the one point the anti-suburb crowd just refuses to acknowledge; **lots of people want to live in suburbs**. If they didn’t, there wouldn’t be any suburbs. All the handwaving and blather in this thread seems to ignore that a lot of people, millions of people, enjoy living in suburban environments. This is mostly a Straw Man, very few of us believe that people don’t want to live in the suburbs. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/134 "2009-05-16T19:57:15Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > From [Half Sigma:](http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/05/its-less-expensive-to-own-a-car-part-ii.html), who actually makes some good points if you ignore his obvious bones to pick: Yeah, except that my three bedroom apartment in Manhattan costs me $ 2000 a month. Still expensive relatively I know, but my wife’s job for instance is simply unavailable anywhere else. If we were to move to New Jersey we’d trade abysmal commutes for a modest savings and we’d gain the expense of having to own two cars. So sure we could probably rent a house an hour out of the city for half the price we rent now, but we’d have a longer commute and all the attendant expenses of two cars. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/135 "2009-05-16T19:58:19Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Farms. If everyone lives in the city, someone has to drive out to the country to harvest the crops, kill the cows and transport said items into the city. People who live in the suburbs don’t work on farms. Farms are not in the suburbs, they are rural. Straw man. Well this thread has degenerated. People cannot come up with real benefits of living in the suburbs so they are mainly comparing city life to rural life, so that makes it rather pointless. I hope it gets back on track and people start arguing the benefits of the suburbs. Though in an irony, they are making our argument quite well, that suburban life is the worst of both worlds. I’d be willing to bet that less than 1% of my food is grown in the suburbs. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/136 "2009-05-16T20:06:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The fact that Hollywood makes film after film about the soul sucking of life in the suburbs should tell you something, particularly since these films are made by people who have LIVED in the suburbs. What it tells me is that your views on the issue might be skewed by the movies you’ve seen as opposed to… how do I put this… reality. Hollywood has also made many, many movies about space aliens attacking Earth. You’ll forgive me if I don’t start panicking about the impending Martian invasion. > [@](#): > > I don’t know how many kids I’ve known from the suburbs who talked about how much they HATE it there. I don’t know, either. > [@](#): > > Right, you picked the slowest growth city from my list to pick on, naturally. I picked Boston at random, actually, but if you knew it wasn’t growing quickly, why’d you name it? > [@](#): > > 5% is pretty significant growth for an established city. Yes it is. And 8%, the growth of the entire metro area, including the city and suburbs, is even more substantial growth. How does that example prove your claim that population is moving from suburbs to city? Answer: It doesn’t. > [@](#): > > That’s A LOT of growth. I admit I thought it because I’ve read articles that stated it and I believed them. If you want to go and actually examine the trends with me I am more than happy to do that, but our conversation is unequal as I am the only one looking up facts. Um… dude, **_I_ was the one who looked up the population growth figures for the cities you named.** You provided no facts, just a list of cities. I was the one who helpfully looked up actual growth figures and found - surprise - that the metro areas of those cities were growing faster than the cities themselves, which would appear to contradict the claim that population was moving from suburbs to city; were that true, then the population growth rates of the cities should be higher than the average of the metro areas they’re in. I brought up the facts in response to your unsupported, and evidently quite false, claim. [QUOTE=mswas] This is mostly a Straw Man, very few of us believe that people don’t want to live in the suburbs. [/QUOTE] Then it was ill-advised of you to say that they “pleased no one.” I can only respond to the words you actually write, not what you wished you’d written. Your retraction is noted. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/137 "2009-05-16T20:12:26Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] People cannot come up with real benefits of living in the suburbs so they are mainly comparing city life to rural life, so that makes it rather pointless. I hope it gets back on track and people start arguing the benefits of the suburbs. [/QUOTE] Oh, you wanted a list of benefits to living in the suburbs? You hadn’t asked for that. Here are some benefits I got from moving out of Toronto and into a suburban city: - More space, both internally and externally - Lower housing costs - Less smell of garbage - Fewer vagrants and criminals - Prettier neighborhoods - Safer, better appointed parks - Better and cheaper municipal services - Better schools - Easier access to affordable day care - Less traffic - Friendlier neighbours That’s just off the top of my head. Did you want me to list more? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/138 "2009-05-16T20:14:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What it tells me is that your views on the issue might be skewed by the movies you’ve seen as opposed to… how do I put this… reality. I don’t actually like suburban dystopia films, so I don’t watch them, I just see them made over and over and over again. Why does dissatisfaction with the suburbs get so much attention? That’s the real question, your personal attacks are of course irrelevant to the issue. > [@](#): > > Hollywood has also made many, many movies about space aliens attacking Earth. You’ll forgive me if I don’t start panicking about the impending Martian invasion. :rolleyes: Not one that actually gives much thought to culture I see. > [@](#): > > I picked Boston at random, actually, but if you knew it wasn’t growing quickly, why’d you name it? I named cities that were growing. You picked the city off the list that was growing the slowest. > [@](#): > > Yes it is. And 8%, the growth of the entire metro area, including the city and suburbs, is even more substantial growth. How does that example prove your claim that population is moving from suburbs to city? Answer: It doesn’t. Right, and I am willing to re-evaluate the claim, but lets try and look at this without going all ‘gotcha’. > [@](#): > > Um… dude, **_I_ was the one who looked up the population growth figures for the cities you named.** You provided no facts, just a list of cities. I was the one who helpfully looked up actual growth figures and found - surprise - that the metro areas of those cities were growing faster than the cities themselves, which would appear to contradict the claim that population was moving from suburbs to city; were that true, then the population growth rates of the cities should be higher than the average of the metro areas they’re in. I brought up the facts in response to your unsupported, and evidently quite false, claim. I gave one that was just a list of cities, I’ve posted other cites in this thread. And my population data from that list comes from wikipedia. It depends on what you see as Metro area. Like in New York’s case as I showed Metro Area, and suburb covers cities like Jersey City and White Plains which are certainly quite urban. You’re dancing around the definitions here. > [@](#): > > Then it was ill-advised of you to say that they “pleased no one.” I can only respond to the words you actually write, not what you wished you’d written. Your retraction is noted. The word ‘please’ occurs in this thread 6 times, on the third page only and only in your posts or posts quoting yours. This post would be the first one where the word ‘please’ appears in the body of any of my posts. So the reality is you are putting words in my mouth and attempting to debunk them. So, how’s about we start over. Lets get an adequate definition of suburb so you guys can stop telling us how great rural living is as if it’s an argument about the suburbs. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/139 "2009-05-16T20:20:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The word ‘please’ occurs in this thread 6 times, on the third page only and only in your posts or posts quoting yours. Actually, it was **Lust4Life** I was accidentally quoting (and s/he was not quoting me) so that was my error - sorry about that. You’re wrong, however, to assert it only appears in my posts or quotes thereof. > [@](#): > > So, how’s about we start over. Lets get an adequate definition of suburb so you guys can stop telling us how great rural living is as if it’s an argument about the suburbs. You’re the one who made the claim that population’s moving from suburbs to cities. Why don’t you define your terms and back up your claims? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831/140 "2009-05-16T20:23:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Oh, you wanted a list of benefits to living in the suburbs? You hadn’t asked for that. It’s only what this thread is about but ok. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Here are some benefits I got from moving out of Toronto and into a suburban city: > > - More space, both internally and externally Ok. This one is solid and unarguable. > [@](#): > > - Lower housing costs Could you give us an example of what you were paying for rent in Toronto and then tell us how much you pay for rent and total car upkeep? Condense it into a yearly figure. > [@](#): > > - Less smell of garbage It doesn’t smell like garbage on my street. _shrugs_ > [@](#): > > - Fewer vagrants and criminals Fewer people. There are not more vagrants and criminals per capita in my area either. > [@](#): > > - Prettier neighborhoods Subjective criteria, relevant but I might think your neighborhood is uglier. > [@](#): > > - Safer, better appointed parks Toronto is nothing like NYC then, we have very safe and well appointed parks. I have about a dozen within ten blocks of my front door. > [@](#): > > - Better and cheaper municipal services Property taxes are far more expensive in NYC suburbs than in NYC. It must be different there. > [@](#): > > - Better schools New York could definitely improve it’s schools but you have access to specialty High Schools, something that you cannot get in a more sparsely populated area. > [@](#): > > - Easier access to affordable day care Affordable is relative to your means. We pay less than $ 7 an hour for day care. > [@](#): > > - Less traffic Ok. > [@](#): > > - Friendlier neighbours It depends on who you know I guess. My neighbors in NYC are at least as friendly if not more than they were in Summit New Jersey (suburban) or Los Lunas New Mexico (rural). > [@](#): > > That’s just off the top of my head. Did you want me to list more? We’ll start there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-sub-urban-sprawl/495831.md?page=8)