# How to deal with the Klan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2001, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841 "2001-11-01T02:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/21 "2001-11-01T04:45:29Z")
In the 1920s, I could understand getting worked up about the Klan. At that point, that had a large membership base, and even had the ear of numerous prominent politicians. But today? They’re a joke. They have few members, no money, no political clout, ZERO ability to influence government policy. So, frankly, I think Fenris is giving them FAR more attention than they deserve. Comparing them to the Nazis makes sense ONLY if you believe that the modern USA is just an overgrown Weimar Republic, and that fascism is lurking just beneath the surface. I don’t believe that for a second. If you do… well, then I advise you to flee the country at once. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/22 "2001-11-01T05:04:25Z")
Alright, please allow me to retract the Nazi Germany comparison. I was being overly emotional (in part due to the show I’d just watched). I was talking with a friend who said much the same thing that folks here have been saying: “Why are you getting so upset? The last Klan rally Denver had was about 10 years ago and the Grand Uber-Lizard or whatever he was called was a grocery-store bag-boy. And like 3 people showed up in support.” I think people are being a bit too dismissive of the Klan…remember David Duke? but I was certainly crediting them too much. That said, I still think it worth discussing how to deal with hate-groups. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/23 "2001-11-01T13:49:59Z")
There are at least 18 states with anti-masking laws in the United States.\* [The Southern Poverty Law Center](http://www.splcenter.org) has a feature on these laws which refuses to link for some reason. The Klan has argued that such laws expose them to the possibility of harassment, loss of jobs and other retaliation. Tough. It’s a long way from publishing their names and addresses on hit lists in websites. And a Klan denied the mystique of its hoods is just a bunch of losers in bedsheets. Unless there’s massive economic/societal upheaval, providing conditions favoring a true Klan rebirth, I recommend unmasking and minimizing response to the SOBs. \*Interestingly, some Muslim groups (Palestinians, Muslim women in general) are protesting anti-masking laws. Chicago’s ordinance was challenged by Muslims. That cause may have lost a bit of sympathy in recent days (though of course there’s no equating such groups with the Klan). ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/24 "2001-11-01T16:27:30Z")
It’s a cliche, but it’s a true cliche: trying to silence someone turns them into a martyr. Look at the backlash against political correctness. For awhile, the most racist and sexist terms we had became chic. Still are, in some places. I mean, we had this problem in gay activism awhile back with people like Eminem. I mean, what do you do with a guy who doesn’t just say “faggot” but who also talks about _killing_ you on stage in front of crowds of thousands of screaming teenagers? And on the radio? Anyway, our main anti-defamation group, GLAAD, tried to silence him, and that created one of the ugliest backlashes I’ve seen yet. No, you’re right, **Fenris**. You can’t stop someone by remaining silent. But you can’t stop them by silencing _them_ either. The only way to beat them is by speaking louder, and, probably more importantly, speaking better. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/25 "2001-11-01T16:30:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > What Klan opponents in America are worried about these days are some public demonstrations on the part of a racist organization which has at most a few thousand members nationwide in all its branches, including splinter groups, and which at present has lost most of its assets in lawsuits. At this point, I’m with **DDG** in thinking that ignoring them is a perfectly reasonable and effective opposition tactic. Kimstu, while the Southern Poverty Law Center confirms what you say about the [Ku Klux Klan](http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/group.jsp?map_data_type_id=3), namely that their membership these days is vastly reduced, nonetheless their name is the most famous of the racist groups in the USA, and is one of the rare (if not the only ones) that is almost universally recognized in this country, so much that the white sheets and masks have entered into folklore (see for example “Blazing Saddles”). I don’t know if I would say that Klan opponents are “worried” about the Klan so much as angry at the memories that the name itself invokes and the weight of history behind it. Perhaps ignoring them is an effective opposition tactic, but the counter-demonstration is even more effective in showing them how their views are reviled today. If, understandably, one does not view an active participation against these racist rallies to be a necessary duty, nonetheless one should commend and encourage those who do take the effort to organize against those groups in a more visible fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/26 "2001-11-01T16:49:46Z")
To be honest with you all I think the reason the KKK has had reduced membership and fewer followers go as follows-\> -Modern times and better educational pathways have shown the youth of our country that races _are_ equal and that being racist is simply out of style. -And of course most people realize that those down-home, barefoot, hillbillies, who are putting dirt sheets on there heads and following an older aryan puke who calls himself a grand dragon, are all just ex-deliverance stand-ins who have no real pathos in life and are utterly content in screwing sheep and shouting non-sense against other races aside from their own, inbred population. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/27 "2001-11-01T18:38:30Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s a cliche, but it’s a true cliche: trying to silence someone turns them into a martyr. Very true. This was the same thing that was noted repeatedly in the Cleveland incident. The Klan had a rally scheduled downtown. A similar rally in another city had blown up with anti-Klan demonstrators rioting against the Klan, who fought back. Rather than simply letting the rally take place with a few silent protestors and sink into oblivion, White made a big deal about trying to stop the march as a “public safety” issue–ironically imitating anti-civil rights city administrations from the 1960s. When he couldn’t get the march halted, he called out extra cops, had all the trash cans removed from the neighborhood, blocked off streets for blocks around, got into _one more_ unnecessary squabble with the police force when he found that the Klan was going to assemble on some public property that the police use (the same site where every march assembles), encouraged three separate, widely scattered anti-Klan rallies (so that two anti-Klan rallies had a insignificant number of people in attendance) and wound up giving the Klan three weeks of free publicity. One of the anti-Klan rallies was held at a park and did draw a decent crowd. (White is a smart human being, but he doesn’t always think things through and rejects any opposition to his preconceived notions.) The actual Klan march was a bust simply because no one was as interested in looking at kooks as White was interested in “looking tough.” Had the Klan been given the permits, then basically ignored except for a few silent protestors, the rally would have been identical, but the Klan would have had less promotion from the city. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/28 "2001-11-01T18:51:07Z")
> [@](#): > > So Maeglin, it’s your view that whoever can bring the most people, or the loudest PA equipment controls the debate? That’s not the kind of country I want to live in. Yeah, that pretty much _is_ the country we live in. Many people seem to mistake freedom of expression for _equal_ expression. One cannot derive the latter from the former. Citizens are perfectly free to prevent each other from speaking, just as I am free to chase you off my lawn. I do not have to tolerate speech I don’t like, and I’ll be damned if the government tries to make me. What the government _cannot_ do is suppress speech that _it_ doesn’t like. The difference is manifest. > [@](#): > > Because outrage doesn’t justify removing someone’s right to speak. Of course it does. And if the government infringes on my trying to remove someone else’s speech, then it is infringing on _my_ freedom of speech. > [@](#): > > Shouting down…making so much noise that the Klan can’t be heard seems like saying "Yeah, you can print your newspaper, but your can’t distribute it. It ain’t free speech if you’re drowned out. The right to free speech includes letting the audience hear the message. No, not really. I don’t have to listen. I can intefere with others trying to listen. I am well within my rights to shout down the KKK or Linda Chavez or the ghost of Mother Theresa if I want to. Now _that_ is absolute freedom of speech. > [@](#): > > I hate the Klan and their ilk, but I don’t think that taking away their right to be speak and someone else’s right to listen is the solution. It depends on who is doing the “taking away.” The government? No, that is definitely not permitted. But as an individual, I can do everything short of breaking the law to infringe on someone else’s freedom of speech. MR ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/29 "2001-11-01T19:22:06Z")
I’d love to see : A Klan rally, and no one showing up. My sense is that they do these for publicity, and I just hate giving them what they want. Holding the bigger and louder rally nearby, gives them a legitimacy - ie acknowledging their message. It bugs me that because of their ‘standing’ as a well recognized hate group, that notice of their rallies become a news item (give me a break - I live in Lansing MI area, work downtown, there’s a rally damn near every day, and frankly no one notices in general - but the damn Klan - we heard about it for weeks before). While their membership is down nationally, I fear that they have their stock pile of sympathizers, and it is that group that concerns me. The very small number of folks willing to don satin sheets in public hide a number of folks who may think the outfits are silly, but silently (or not so silently) semi agree with their message. And those folks exist. So, for them, to see the Klan shouted down by another nearby rally, actually gives the Klan message **more** legitimacy (‘see- their message is feared, it must be true’). My preference - don’t publicize way in advance (Headlines “Klan to rally on steps of this building next Saturday, Mayor objects!” - bah). Which means, don’t fight the permits (that’s news). Quietly go to other more positive groups and suggest they hold fund raisers, community events, etc the same day elsewhere. you will need to provide some security for the Klan (don’t fight that, either - it’s the court battles that garners the publicity), do NOT hold any other event nearby, hopefully the media would self limit to maybe one print reporter and a cub scout with an instamatic camera, meanwhile, put reporters/cameras at every other damn event. Next day news: Lots and lots of pictures/stories about all the other neato things in the community, and nobody gave a s\*\*\* that the Klan showed up at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/30 "2001-11-01T19:37:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Shouting down…making so much noise that the Klan can’t be heard seems like saying "Yeah, you can print your newspaper, but your can’t distribute it. It ain’t free speech if you’re drowned out. The right to free speech includes letting the audience hear the message. > > No, not really. I don’t have to listen. I can intefere with others trying to listen. I am well within my rights to shout down the KKK or Linda Chavez or the ghost of Mother Theresa if I want to. > > Now _that_ is absolute freedom of speech. > > > [@](#): > > > > I hate the Klan and their ilk, but I don’t think that taking away their right to be speak and someone else’s right to listen is the solution. > > It depends on who is doing the “taking away.” The government? No, that is definitely not permitted. But as an individual, I can do everything short of breaking the law to infringe on someone else’s freedom of speech. > \*\* What you describe – the **heckler’s veto** – may not be an actual first amendment violation (as you correctly point out, the first amendment only applies to government action), but it it is a violation of the principle of **free and open discourse** that underlies the First Amendment. I recall an incident similar to the one ascribed to Ms. Chavez’ vist: when I was in law school, Ward Connerly was invited to give a talk. He was, for the most part, shouted off the stage, much to the disappiontment of the **open-minded people who wanted to hear what he had to say**. This type of thing was particularly disturbing in that it happed at a university (at a law school, no less!), a place which above all else is supposed to be about the free exchange of ideas. You say that you, as an individual, have the “right” to infringe on other’s speech within the bounds of the law. True enough. But by that standard, the 1950’s Hollywood blacklists were OK, too, as were attempts by universities to remove professors who were insufficiently anti-Communist in their lectures. Hey, it isn’t the _government_ that’s doing it, right? A studio or university can hire or fire whoever they want, right? Put simply, just because you **can** do something does not mean that you **should**. Shouting down a speaker just because you disagree with him or her may be legal, but it is certainly inconsistent with a worldview that values free expression and open debate. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/31 "2001-11-01T19:39:51Z")
I want to be absolutely clear about my _personal_ beliefs on this matter. I do not think that shouting down the clan is the most effective way of dealing with it. I merely took issue to **Fenris’** interpretation of the meaning of freedom of speech. I support the ARA’s right to shout them down and make a ruckus even if I feel it is a foolish course of action. And perhaps if the issues and organizations were different, I might be out there, shouting down someone else’s parade. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/32 "2001-11-01T20:45:00Z")
One novel idea on how to shut down the Klan was proposed by [Stetson Kennedy](http://www.stetsonkennedy.net/pbpostarticle.htm). Kennedy was a Southern activist who in the '40s accomplished the almost suicidally daring feat of infiltrating one of the most dangerous Klaverns in the country, exposing its inner workings and helping to send Klan leaders to jail (his books, including _The Klan Unmasked_ make fascinating reading). After the Klan had gone defunct in one state (Illinois?) Kennedy suggested that an alternate group apply for state charter status under the Klan name. That way, racists who tried to reactivate the KKK would get their butts sued for infringing on the exclusive naming rights. This idea infuriated Klan leaders, especially because the proposed board of directors for the alternate Klan included several prominent black citizens. Unfortunately, the state decided that it wanted no part of any group calling itself the Klan…and I’m not sure how legally sound the concept of exclusive charter status is. Might be fun, though. Julian Bond, Grand Dragon? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/33 "2001-11-01T21:08:23Z")
Kennedy’s charter idea included protecting the new Klan’s rights to classic regalia and the organizational structure of the KKK, as well as the Klan name. So would-be Klan revivalists would have been denied their costumes and rituals also. This has reminded me about my uneasiness when my high school decided that the senior class would wear _white_ caps and gowns for graduation. It just didn’t look right. ---
**Author:** ![Payne\_N.Diaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Payne\_N.Diaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Payne_N.Diaz)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/34 "2001-11-02T19:56:38Z")
So the general consensus is to marginalize them, but not ignore them. By ignoring them, you give them the freedom to work in the dark, as it were, but by reducing them to an insignificant flyspeck on the windshield of life, you deny them any credibility and/or importance, which is what they really want. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/35 "2001-11-02T22:57:47Z")
[Sue them when they do something illegal.](http://www.pbs.org/seekingsolutions/hate/chcBiosOrganization.htm) > [@](#): > > Morris Dees and the Center filed a civil suit against the South Carolina Klan on behalf of Macedonia Baptist Church and won a $37.8 million judgment against the KKK. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/36 "2001-11-03T04:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\*P.S. Fenris, if ever you try the “scattering them like chickens” approach, let me know. I call shotgun. \*\* I get righthand back seat! ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Creant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b487fb/32.png) [@Miss\_Creant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Creant)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2001, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/37 "2001-11-03T04:40:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*It was less than two dozen. > [http://www7.cnn.com/US/9910/23/klan.03/](http://www7.cnn.com/US/9910/23/klan.03/) > > I like the picture of them cowering behind the Confederate flag. \*\* I gotta know What’s the significance of ‘D’ batteries? Why not ‘C’ or ‘AA’, other than the others would hurt less. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2001, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/38 "2001-11-03T08:41:46Z")
The Klan fortunately is a dying organization. Unfortunately, this isn’t because the beliefs they espouse are disappearing, but because other organizations have replaced the Klan in espousing them. As for dealing with the Klan, consider what they want. Politically they’re impotent and they know it; they’ll never again have a voice in formulating public policy. Law enforcement agencies are watching them too closely for the Klan to activily pursue the terrorist acts they once did. So the Klan’s reduced to symbolism; they want to provoke a reaction. They want fear, anger, resistance, or even sullen passivity - anything that allows them to delude themselves into thinking they’re still a menace. So fighting the Klan doesn’t help; it just reinforces their world view. But ridicule, on the other hand, works. Let’s face facts, no one likes to be publically laughed at. And the Klan is an incredibly easy target. A bunch of inbred sixth-grade droputs dressing up in bed linen and marching in the name of their innate superiority? C’mon. So imagine for a second that you’re a Klansman. Obviously, you’ve pretty much failed at every aspect of your life. But you believe that the Klan makes you somehow bigger and better than you are as an individual. If people try to stop you from marching, that just proves how scared they are of you. If they yell at you or throw punches at you, it just shows you’re making some powerful enemies. But if you march down the street and everyone laughs at you, then what? Now your hood and cape are just another symbol that you’re a loser. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2001, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/39 "2001-11-03T17:49:47Z")
A couple of years ago there was a Klan raly right here in Ann Arbor. I believe the Grand Wizard or some such was making his home in scenic Howell, MI. Anyhow, there was a march, with Anti-Kan protestors outnumbering actual Klansmen at least 10 to 1, and the police being caled out to protect the Klan marchers. At one point the crowd turned ugly and it became a small anti-Klan riot. The crowd was attacking this one Klansman and a black girl threw herself between the klansman and the crowd in order to protect him. Because, basically, her opinion was that its not right for people to attack other people, regardess of their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2001, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841/40 "2001-11-03T18:31:42Z")
Wasn’t there some folks a while back who shut down a Fred Phelps rally by pledging donations to GLBT charities for every minute the Phelps rally lasted? Sounds like the perfect way to handle a Klan rally - just donate to the United Negro College Fund instead. I do like the ideas of (1) having everyone turn their backs when a KKK parade passed and/or (2) laughing them down. The devil cannot abide to be mocked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-deal-with-the-klan/90841.md?page=3)