# How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653 "2012-08-06T20:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/181 "2012-08-13T03:53:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now, my idea resembles that post-“sepearate but equal” reality. The one that had one set of schools for all children. I’m advocating ONE set of laws (like one set of integrated schools) that are accessed by two groups, heterosexuals and homosexuals, akin to blacks and whites. Actually, your proposal is much more akin to the post _Plessy v Ferguson_ ruling when the Supreme Court had just ruled that the states could, indeed, set up one separate but equal set of laws that applied separately but (purportedly) equally to two groups of people. I realize that you want to believe that your “separate but equal” is different than the 1896 “separate but equal,” but you have provided no reason for anyone to believe that it would actually work that way. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/182 "2012-08-13T10:47:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now, my idea resembles that post-“sepearate but equal” reality. The one that had one set of schools for all children. I’m advocating ONE set of laws (like one set of integrated schools) that are accessed by two groups, heterosexuals and homosexuals, akin to blacks and whites. > > Now THAT is my idea. You’re free to embrace it, criticize it or ignore it. But it would be helpful if you at least accepted what the idea I’m putting forth is. Otherwise you’re arguing against someone else. And if you continue to do so, you’ll have to wait for a response from that imaginary person. OK so can we call this one set of laws marriage? If not why not? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/183 "2012-08-13T11:37:02Z")
As everyone else has said, **magellan** , your proposal only comprises one set of laws if there’s no legal difference between the mutual legal contracts set up for a same-sex couple and the ones set up for an opposite-sex couple. If that truly is your proposal–if you’ve given up the two-set-solution of marriage for straights, civil union for gays–then I’m delighted to have you come around. But if you’re maintaining your proposal, then you’ve got a legal difference, namely, the different names. And that’s precisely the legal difference I described in my analogy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/184 "2012-08-13T12:25:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m advocating ONE set of laws (like one set of integrated schools) that are accessed by two groups, heterosexuals and homosexuals, akin to blacks and whites. Except that the one school has only _one name_ over the door, and both blacks and whites can equally lay claim to being students there, with no distinction drawn between them. But \*not \*in your “logical” version of marriage. [/QUOTE] > [@Bosstone](#): > > And yet he can’t make that one last little step to dropping the civil union part. It’s kind of astonishing, really. Not if you reflect on the power that words hold. By using a different word for gays than straights, one can maintain the image that they’re different (a point **magellan01** insists on, that they’re different), i.e. not normal, not entitled to be thought the same as everyone else. By insisting on the terminology, one reminds oneself, if not them, of their place. It’s entirely possible to believe intellectually in nondiscrimination, but resist it on a visceral level, and such a person reaches that visceral level when there is no longer any tool to exercise the viscera. Which gets us back to the words in the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/185 "2012-08-13T13:52:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Okay, stop right three. My idea does nothing of the sort. You’re saying there are two schools. A correct analogy to my idea would use one school. In my idea there is just (let’s go micro for a second) one school. One. Not two, one. Bringing it around to this debate: _one (1) set of laws_. Not two. One. _Two different groups_ qualify to be covered under that one set of laws, those who have been joined through marriage and those who have been joined through civil unions. Two different groups—akin to the two groups of children in Topeka, Kansas—and one set of laws—akin to one school (system). More semantic games. Marriage laws are not all the same from state to state right now. You’re simply trying to create a technicality so you can declare they are legally equal. It still requires states to create a new legal institution , and for what purpose? Why all that extra effort? To protect tradition, or the definition of a word? You seem to be claiming that separate but equal can work if only we go to the extra effort to make it work. The obvious question is , why that effort? Why didn’t separate but equal work before. I suggest that the reason it didn’t work then and can’t work now is because the very thing in people that makes them see the need to keep separate from people in their own society is contrary to equality. If you truly in your heart and mind want others to be equal, then there’s no need for them to be separate. If you maintain they should be separate, then you are deciding that true equality is secondary to your own personal preferences. This is demonstrated by examining the arguments and realizing that there are no rational fact based arguments to support the need for separation. > [@](#): > > As I hope you realize now, you’ve outlined separate but equal as it applies to the Brown court case. It does not resemble my idea—at all. I think you’re kidding yourself. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/186 "2012-08-18T02:26:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Yes, but in my experience never in language remotely similar to what’s being hurled against Cathy. In the Salon [piece](http://www.salon.com/2012/08/06/five_lessons_from_chick_fil_a/) I linked to, Cathy is called hateful and a ranter and his supporters have “paranoia, the sheer stupidity and the irrational animus of a bewildered herd”, and so forth. [Elsewhere](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/08/chick_fil_a_controversy_why_dan_cathy_s_statements_are_dangerous_.html): “Imagine if Elmer Fudd had a love child with Jesse Helms’ mother, and there, I thought to myself, you have Dan Cathy,” “bigoted asshole”, etc… You can find stuff like this on just about any liberal site on the internet. I would be highly surprised to see the people who say these things using the same language towards Obama or any other Democrat because of their stance on gay marriage. > Then consider the position of most Democrats for many years, prior to Obama. For example, on the Defense of Marriage Act, many Democrats voted in favor of it in 1996, including liberal favorites such as Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Paul Wellstone, Pat Leahy, and Bill Bradley. That certainly qualifies as doing something, so why weren’t those guys blased as being “bigoted assholes”, “hatemongers”, the illegitimate half-brother of Jesse Helms, and so forth? That past is not the present. There used to be the idea that gay marriages were bad for kids and other such stuff, but that’s been disproven now. Just like, back when “science” said that black people were inferior, I wouldn’t hold people to believing said “science.” Furthermore, these are politicians, saying what they say to get elected. I do have tolerance to the occasional lie when the result is that you will be able to do more good. Cathy has no reason to say what he said than genuine belief. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/187 "2012-08-18T05:20:40Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > More semantic games. Marriage laws are not all the same from state to state right now. You’re simply trying to create a technicality so you can declare they are legally equal. It still requires states to create a new legal institution , and for what purpose? Why all that extra effort? To protect tradition, or the definition of a word? You seem to be claiming that separate but equal can work if only we go to the extra effort to make it work. The obvious question is , why that effort? Why didn’t separate but equal work before. This, finally, is a legitimate complaint about what I propose. Finally. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think you’re kidding yourself. No. I am well aware of what my ideas are and are not. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/188 "2012-08-18T05:31:08Z")
There is no difference worth worrying about between opposing gay marriage for any reason and going out with a baseball bat looking for queers; it all requires a denial that sexual minorities are people, and one goes hand in hand with the other in terms of the mentality it creates and condones. As I’m not a Democrat, I’m not bound to engage in ridiculous contortions to apologize for Barack Obama’s generally loathsome attitudes on this issue so I’m free to recognize the truth of the above. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/189 "2012-08-18T06:11:22Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > There is no difference worth worrying about between opposing gay marriage for any reason and going out with a baseball bat looking for queers; it all requires a denial that sexual minorities are people, and one goes hand in hand with the other in terms of the mentality it creates and condones. Of course, sane people will disagree with this. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/190 "2012-08-18T13:03:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This, finally, is a legitimate complaint about what I propose. Finally. A complaint which is unanswered. > [@](#): > > No. I am well aware of what my ideas are and are not. To say your idea does not resemble the separate but equal of the Brown case…at all. Seems vastly overstated and more semantic wrangling. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/191 "2012-08-18T13:05:53Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > There is no difference worth worrying about between opposing gay marriage for any reason and going out with a baseball bat looking for queers; it all requires a denial that sexual minorities are people, and one goes hand in hand with the other in terms of the mentality it creates and condones. > > As I’m not a Democrat, I’m not bound to engage in ridiculous contortions to apologize for Barack Obama’s generally loathsome attitudes on this issue so I’m free to recognize the truth of the above. Of course there is. We don’t prosecute people for verbal assault in the same way we do assault with a deadly weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/192 "2012-08-18T15:40:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Of course there is. We don’t prosecute people for verbal assault in the same way we do assault with a deadly weapon. The people doing the one are the same people doing the other. Legalities of free speech should be protected, but morally a scumbag is a scumbag. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/193 "2012-08-18T16:13:57Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The people doing the one are the same people doing the other. Legalities of free speech should be protected, but morally a scumbag is a scumbag. No, actually–the people voting against SSM aren’t the same as the people beating up gay people with baseball bats. Both are immoral bigots, but the latter is a lot worse, and it’s bizarre to say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/194 "2012-08-18T16:17:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, actually–the people voting against SSM aren’t the same as the people beating up gay people with baseball bats. Well, not all of them; but I’d expect a substantial overlap. Most anti- voters presumably don’t personally beat gays, but I’d expect that any gay basher who votes _is_ an anti-SSMer. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/195 "2012-08-18T16:26:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, not all of them; but I’d expect a substantial overlap. Most anti- voters presumably don’t personally beat gays, but I’d expect that any gay basher who votes _is_ an anti-SSMer. Certainly so. The portion of actual gay bashers who vote, I suspect, is very small. And in any case I’m responding to someone who said there’s “no difference worth worrying about between opposing gay marriage for any reason and going out with a baseball bat looking for queers,” who equated the two actions, not simply saying the same people do both actions. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/196 "2012-08-18T17:13:12Z")
Your ridiculous attempts to be “civil” to inhuman monsters will look as ridiculous in 50 years as drawing moral distinctions between people who raped their slaves, people who owned slaves but didn’t rape them, and people who just defended slavery in the press does now. Either you believe gays are people or you don’t; distinctions beyond that are pure metaphysical masturbation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/197 "2012-08-18T18:07:09Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Either you believe gays are people or you don’t; distinctions beyond that are pure metaphysical masturbation. This is untrue. On the contrary, it’s hard to think of anything less metaphysical than the difference between having a baseball bat applied to your head, and not having a baseball bat applied to your head. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/198 "2012-08-18T20:06:01Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Your ridiculous attempts to be “civil” to inhuman monsters will look as ridiculous in 50 years as drawing moral distinctions between people who raped their slaves, people who owned slaves but didn’t rape them, and people who just defended slavery in the press does now. Either you believe gays are people or you don’t; distinctions beyond that are pure metaphysical masturbation. Actually, that seems like a perfectly valid moral distinction to me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/199 "2012-08-18T21:40:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Actually, that seems like a perfectly valid moral distinction to me. I agree. I, for example, don’t believe that robots, condescending or not, should be able to get married; however, I don’t approve of [this](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u-YuH_2loOc/TYdB0VB8PvI/AAAAAAAACOU/rLey7Y959Y4/s1600/Broken_Robot_by_miracledrug.jpg). Maybe that’ll help him understand the difference. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/200 "2012-08-18T23:48:49Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The people doing the one are the same people doing the other. Legalities of free speech should be protected, but morally a scumbag is a scumbag. I call bullshit. That may be philosophically and ideally true , but we as humans are not ideal, and by that standard, we all are scumbags. How does one scumbag judge another scumbag so harshly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=11)