# How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653 "2012-08-06T20:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/461 "2012-09-03T13:47:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And they take American jobs. Usually at the DMV. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/462 "2012-09-03T13:51:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Somewhere in an alternate universe, Captain Kirk said this to an android or computer and it caught fire. 😃 This thread needed some levity. ---
**Author:** ![stevenova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/463 "2012-09-03T14:40:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > D-Bear should, perhaps, have been clearer. The conversation isn’t simply about segregation, but about segregation as it was practiced in the South–specifically, involuntary segregation that denied rights to black people that were given to white people. If we’re just talking about voluntary segregation, the equivalent to that would be lesbian separatists, many of whom are probably not bigots (I don’t know any lesbian separatists, for obvious reasons, so I’m not qualified to speculate on their bigotry or lack thereof). > > So: I’m intrigued. Can you provide me an example of ANYONE who supported racial segregation as it was practiced in mid-century U.S.A. who was not doing so based on a bigoted view of “Negros” in the society of the time? How would that even be a valid comparison to SS marriage, ESPECIALLY given how overwhelming the very group you are talking about, blacks, who faced segregation, strongly oppose SS marriage? Are people who support smoking bans with zero exceptions, even for just bars for only smokers to go, bigots? You would stop smokers from just smoking amongst themselves? If that’s not bigotry, I don’t know what is, but that’s the rule in most places now. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/464 "2012-09-03T14:45:57Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > How would that even be a valid comparison to SS marriage, ESPECIALLY given how overwhelming the very group you are talking about, blacks, who faced segregation, strongly oppose SS marriage? I somehow fail to see the contradiction. Just because Minority Group A got justice and Minority Group B is now seeking it doesn’t mean A supports B. > [@](#): > > Are people who support smoking bans with zero exceptions, even for just bars for only smokers to go, bigots? You would stop smokers from just smoking amongst themselves? If that’s not bigotry, I don’t know what is, but that’s the rule in most places now. Trouble is, smoking doesn’t politely confine its effects to just the smoker. It’s only analogous if a gay marriage somehow splashes second-hand gay over straight people. ---
**Author:** ![stevenova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/465 "2012-09-03T15:06:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I somehow fail to see the contradiction. Just because Minority Group A got justice and Minority Group B is now seeking it doesn’t mean A supports B. > > Trouble is, smoking doesn’t politely confine its effects to just the smoker. It’s only analogous if a gay marriage somehow splashes second-hand gay over straight people. How is a bar that is only smokers going to spill over onto anyone else? So you would stop smokers from smoking even amongst themselves?; How is that not bigotry? That’s like banning gay bars to protect gays from themselves. YOu could say that SS marriage cheapens and redefines other people’s marriages by equaiting opposite sex marriage with two dudes marrying. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/466 "2012-09-03T15:32:44Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > How is a bar that is only smokers going to spill over onto anyone else? So you would stop smokers from smoking even amongst themselves? You mean like in hermetically-sealed bank vaults with quadruple-stage charcoal air filtration? No, I think I’d let that slide. Their clothes would still stink when they got out, though. > [@](#): > > YOu could say that SS marriage cheapens and redefines other people’s marriages by equaiting opposite sex marriage with two dudes marrying. Yeah, I could… presumably after suffering a head injury of some kind. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/467 "2012-09-03T15:42:19Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > How would that even be a valid comparison to SS marriage, ESPECIALLY given how overwhelming the very group you are talking about, blacks, who faced segregation, strongly oppose SS marriage? These two things have no logical connection. There were slaves who, when freed, bought slaves of their own; do you therefore think criticisms of slavery are invalid? Of course not. Many black people faced segregation in the US, and today many black people oppose SSM, but there’s no relationship between the two. > [@](#): > > Are people who support smoking bans with zero exceptions, even for just bars for only smokers to go, bigots? You would stop smokers from just smoking amongst themselves? If that’s not bigotry, I don’t know what is, but that’s the rule in most places now. I agree with the fact that you don’t know what bigotry is; what you posted about smokers has jack-all to do with bigotry. For the record, people who dislike dogfighting aren’t bigots, nor are people who refuse to supersize their meals, nor are people who love the Bruins. Hopefully this will avoid at least three total non-sequiturs on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/468 "2012-09-03T15:46:11Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > How is a bar that is only smokers going to spill over onto anyone else? So you would stop smokers from smoking even amongst themselves?; How is that not bigotry? That’s like banning gay bars to protect gays from themselves. It’s nothing like that. You may want to take a break from analogies for a bit; they’re not working out for you. Smoking in bars is banned, not to protect smokers from themselves, but as a workplace safety issue. Folks who work in bars can suffer secondhand smoke damage. Nobody has ever suffered secondhand gay damage. You may want to argue that this workplace safety regulation is unnecessary or unwise, and there’s certainly an argument to be made along those lines. But to argue that it’s bigotry is to show an ignorance of the origin of the laws. > [@](#): > > YOu could say that SS marriage cheapens and redefines other people’s marriages by equaiting opposite sex marriage with two dudes marrying. “You could say”? Sure, and I could also say that hippopotamuses wrote the Iliad. But I won’t, because it’d be a ridiculous thing to say. Are YOU saying that SSM cheapens other people’s marriages? If so, say it yourself, and don’t tell me what I could say. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/469 "2012-09-03T15:54:12Z")
Clearly we can’t be sure that two plus two equals four, until after we’ve proved that it’s _not_ three, or five, or purple, or clouds, or feline… and everything else. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/470 "2012-09-03T17:32:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Of course they have, repeatedly and at length. They haven’t established it using _your_ sharply limited definition of bigotry, is all. Really? Can you point to the post where that was laid out with an explanation rather than an assertion? > [@Miller](#): > > Yes, people are steadily becoming less bigoted on the subject. Some people who used to be bigoted, are no longer bigoted at all. This doesn’t mean that they were never bigoted, and it doesn’t mean that the people who are still in the process of coming to terms with the realities of human sexuality are not currently bigoted. Bigotry isn’t indelible. People can get over it. Perhaps. I have not seen that happen very often and nothing in the current change in opinions appears to support that view. I am not seeing a bit of education overcoming an obstinate devotion to a belief. I do see a lot of people who really had not given the matter much thought coming around to a different perspective when they begin to actually consider the situation. That is rather the specific difference between bigotry and simply having an opposing viewpoint. > [@Miller](#): > > Utter bullshit. Your own definition of the word doesn’t say anything about motivation. Bigotry is defined by actions, not motivations. Opposition to SSM is bigotry. It may be soft bigotry, but it’s still a member of the same species. And it’s important not to let the mental gymnastics of people like yourself distract us from that. Not because we need it as a club to beat people over the heads, but because it’s necessary for them to understand exactly how wrong they are. If we let them off the hook by not calling their bigotry for what it is, they might end up under the mistaken impression that what they believe is, on some level, acceptable, that we might be amenable to some sort of compromise. It’s important to make it clear that we’re not going to be cool with only being a little discriminated against. By clearly identifying this attitude as bigoted, we can make it understood exactly why we won’t settle for some middle ground I would disagree on the lack of a necessity of motivation. A bigot is devoted to, (_dictionary term, you may substitute a different word if you wish_) their belief. All the people who appear to have been changing their views hardly seem to have been devoted to their beliefs; they simply held them as an unconsidered opinion that they absorbed from the society around them and then changed those views when they were presented a different way of looking at the world. A great many of them have supported the gay community on a lot of separate issues: rights to jobs and housing; right to adopt children; freedom from harrassment; rights to partner benefits, etc., and have “fallen short” on this single issue. Nothing in their attitudes or their behavior suggests that they consider homosexuality a disability or a stigma or that homosexuals are lesser persons; they simply have not yet come to regard marriage in a different way than the one in which they were raised. We need to persuade them to change those views; hurling insults is not the best way to do it. As to whether you are beating people over the head or simply showing them the error of their ways: I differ. I doubt that one person in a hundred who has switched their views on the topic did so because someone got in their face and called them a bigot. Far more have simply been persuaded by a call to consider the situation diferently or, (more frequently, actually), were led to a different appreciation by someone who changed their minds, previously. No one whom I have known as a bigot has changed their views–despite any number of opportunites to be persuaded otherwise or to have been called names. On the other hand, everyone whom I know who has changed their views did so through persuasion or simply through encountering gay couples and deciding on a personal basis that their old view no longer held water. I have never taken a stand opposing or even failing to support Same Sex Marriage in my life\*, but I still see no reason to resort to name-calling against people who have failed to demonstrate actual antipathy to the homosexual community who simply have not yet made a complete reconsideration on a single issue. - Granted, I was not out promoting the cause in my youth, but, as noted up thread, the topic was not even an issue for discussion in my youth. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/471 "2012-09-03T17:43:31Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > YOu could say that SS marriage cheapens and redefines other people’s marriages by equaiting opposite sex marriage with two dudes marrying. I really hope that anyone posting to this forum is smarter than to say something that is so lacking in meaning. My marriage is not cheapened by the actions of anyone else. The expression of love with (one hopes) a lifetime commitment between any people hardly cheapens any other similar expression, regardless of the genitalia on any of the parties. Your claim simply makes no sense. I can understand the person who claims that he or she cannot conceive of a marriage between members of the same sex; it is outside their lifelong understanding of the concept even if their concept is simply too limited. But a claim that the actions of anyone else has any bearing on the value of my actions is just silly. If one wished to point to actions that “cheapen” marriage, one might look at celebrities who marry and divorce as though they were high-schoolers rotating through the dating pool or to guys who buy brides from Korea or Russia. Even there, such actions might lower the value of marriage as an institution with the overall society, but it hardly does any damage to the actual commitments of people who profess those commitments to each other. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/472 "2012-09-03T17:54:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > We need to persuade them to change those views; hurling insults is not the best way to do it. > > As to whether you are beating people over the head or simply showing them the error of their ways: I differ. I doubt that one person in a hundred who has switched their views on the topic did so because someone got in their face and called them a bigot. See, THIS is an interesting discussion. I agree with you that there are plenty of circumstances under which using the word “bigot” is unhelpful and even counterproductive, because it is a negative word, just like “ignorant” is a negative word. If you want to talk about when it helps change attitudes to use words like “bigot” or “ignorant,” then yeah, let’s talk. But that’s not what the discussion has been about. It’s been about whether the word “bigot” applies to folks who oppose SSM. Anyone who believes evolution can’t explain the eyeball is ignorant. I don’t say that because it gives me a thrill of superiority to say that, nor am I projecting my own ignorance on them, or anything like that; it’s just a statement of fact. Now, if I’m trying to persuade someone that they’re incorrect about evolution, I’ll probably not call them ignorant, because that’s going to shut down the discussion a lot of the time. But if the question is raised about whether they’re ignorant, I’m not going to lie just to make them feel better: the word applies, and there’s no reason to pretend otherwise. The same thing applies here. Anyone who opposes the legalization of SSM is, I believe, bigoted. I don’t say that because it gives me a thrill of superiority to say that, nor am I projecting my own bigotry on them, or anything like that; it’s just a statement of fact. Now, if I’m trying to persuade someone that they’re incorrect about SSM, I’ll probably not call them a bigot, because that’s going to shut down the discussion a lot of the time. But if the question is raised about whether they’re a bigot, I’m not going to lie just to make them feel better: the word applies, and there’s no reason to pretend otherwise. [note to stevenova: THAT is how an analogy works!] ---
**Author:** ![D-bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@D-bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D-bear)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/473 "2012-09-03T19:18:06Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > Mohammed Ali I’ve looked. Can you find a quote from Mohammed Ali that stated a **support** of racial segregation? He was vocal about not supporting forced integration, > [@Mohammed Ali](#): > > ``` > "I ain’t no Christian. I can’t be, when I see all the coloured people fighting for forced integration getting blowed up. They get hit by stones and chewed by dogs and they blow up a Negro church and don’t find the killers. I get telephone calls every day. They want me to carry signs. They want me to picket. They tell me it would be good for brotherhood. I don’t want to be blown up. I don’t want to be washed down sewers. I just want to be happy with my own kind. > > "I’m the heavyweight champion of the world, but right now there are some neighbourhoods I can’t move into. I know how to dodge booby traps and dogs. I dodge them by staying in my own neighbourhood. I’m no troublemaker. I don’t believe in forced integration. I know where I belong. I’m not going to force myself into anybody’s house… > > "I love white people. I like my own people. They can live together without infringing on each other". > > ``` As for the Nation of Islam, they were as bigoted against white people as the whites were against them. Holding up bigots to prove other bigots are not bigots is a weak argument. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/474 "2012-09-03T19:27:26Z")
The question was about segregation. The NOI in the early 60’s was strongly behind Marcus Garvey’s back-to-Africa movement, and supported black separatism at home. Their reasons weren’t bigoted but counter-bigoted - the belief was that the bigoted white community would always keep them down as long as they were side by side, and they needed to separate in order to control their own lives and futures. It wasn’t hatred of whites as such, it was hatred of how whites had treated them. They were actually willing to ally politically with white segregationists to achieve that goal. Their views did evolve along with the civil rights movement, of course, especially after Malcolm X’s murder and Elijah Muhammad’s death and the advances of the nonviolent, nonsegregationist King movement. Muhammad Ali was a devout NOI member, one of Elijah Muhammad’s Fruit of Islam security force in fact, so it’s not out of place to ascribe the full set of NOI beliefs to him - along with credit for their evolution. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/475 "2012-09-03T20:26:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The same thing applies here. Anyone who opposes the legalization of SSM is, I believe, bigoted. I don’t say that because it gives me a thrill of superiority to say that, nor am I projecting my own bigotry on them, or anything like that; it’s just a statement of fact. On what grounds? If they have no problem with homosexuality or homosexuals and they support all the rights and privileges of citizenship and membership in society for homosexuals, they are willing to work with, worship with, and associate with homosexuals, but they simply cannot get around the idea that marriage, (an institution that has been solely heterosexual for all of Western history and certainly all the history and literature that they would have encountered up until the 1990s), to anything other than a heterosexual relationship, where is the bigotry? It is one aspect of a very complex situation and you are claiming that they have an umoveable hatred for or intolerance of homosexuals based on a single aspect of all the possible human interactions that exist. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/476 "2012-09-03T20:28:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > On what grounds? > If they have no problem with homosexuality or homosexuals and they support all the rights and privileges of citizenship and membership in society for homosexuals, they are willing to work with, worship with, and associate with homosexuals, but they simply cannot get around the idea that marriage, (an institution that has been solely heterosexual for all of Western history and certainly all the history and literature that they would have encountered up until the 1990s), to anything other than a heterosexual relationship, where is the bigotry? If they don’t support the right of marriage for gay folks, they don’t support all the rights and privileges of citizenship and membership in society for gay folk. I notice that include that line about “if they…support all the rights and privileges…” Did you include that bit because you think it was necessary, that someone who doesn’t “support all the rights and privileges” is more susceptible to the charge of bigotry? If that’s not why you included it, would you mind explaining why you did? > [@](#): > > It is one aspect of a very complex situation and you are claiming that they have an umoveable hatred for or intolerance of homosexuals based on a single aspect of all the possible human interactions that exist. You ignored me before when I pointed out your incorrect notion that I think hatred is involved. So let me say again: you are best mistaken when you say I think hatred is involved. Nor do I think “unmoveable” is necessary. That is mistaken. I think an obstinate intolerance is involved. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/477 "2012-09-03T20:40:19Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > But you are saying you think someone could oppose it and not be a bigot. That means you probably have a scenario in mind in which someone opposes it and isn’t a bigot. So what’s the scenario? No, I’m not saying I have a scenario, just that you must wait to hear the anti-gay marriage person’s scenario before judging it as automatically bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/478 "2012-09-03T20:41:54Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > If you’re that upset about polygamy, go and start a new thread. “How to decide which instances of opposition to polygamous marriage are hateful and bigoted.” I’m sure you’ll find plenty of people to engage you. This thread is about SSM. It is a perfectly legitimate point. If opposition to gay marriage is bigotry, is opposition to other kinds of marriage also bigotry? Can you answer the question? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/479 "2012-09-03T20:43:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not necessarily. The difference is that people can and do make rational, harm based arguments against all of those things. You’re prejudging the arguments. You can’t assume that people can’t have rational, harm-based arguments against gay marriage, even if you reject them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/480 "2012-09-03T20:45:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, I’m not saying I have a scenario, just that you must wait to hear the anti-gay marriage person’s scenario before judging it as automatically bigoted. Technically, this is true, just as I can’t call someone a racist until I hear their reasons for thinking that black people are demonspawn. Maybe this particular person has a cogent, reasonable, and persuasive argument in favor of the claim. Similarly, maybe this particular anti-SSM has discovered the objective harm of SSM that has eluded every other person so far, and will convince me. As a human, though, I play the odds. When I’ve heard dozens upon dozens of people make their arguments against same sex marriage, and every single one of them has an intolerance toward gay people at its heart, I’m not going to hold my breath that this particular anti-SSMer is going to be different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=25)