# How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653 "2012-08-06T20:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/481 "2012-09-03T20:47:28Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It is a perfectly legitimate point. If opposition to gay marriage is bigotry, is opposition to other kinds of marriage also bigotry? I already answered this question. Because gay marriage causes no objective harm–and I’ve reached this conclusion after reading the arguments put forward by leading anti-SSMers, as well as court decisions and many other documents–opposition to it must be rooted in bigotry. Opposition to arranged marriages, forced marriages, marriages to underage persons, etc. is based in a rational belief that those forms of marriages cause objective harm, and so opposition to them is not bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/482 "2012-09-03T20:47:30Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It is a perfectly legitimate point. If opposition to gay marriage is bigotry, is opposition to other kinds of marriage also bigotry? > > Can you answer the question? I’ll give it a shot: Yes, if the opposition is based on bigoted, irrational reasons. We’re still waiting for a rational reason to oppose gay marriage; there are several to oppose polygamy. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/483 "2012-09-03T21:07:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ll give it a shot: > Yes, if the opposition is based on bigoted, irrational reasons. We’re still waiting for a rational reason to oppose gay marriage; there are several to oppose polygamy. Key word: “IF”. So if opposition is based on bigoted reasons, it’s bigoted. If not, it’s not. So it’s possible to oppose gay marriage but not be a bigot (possibly), and you have to wait to hear the argument before declaring it to be bigotry. If all arguments are exhausted and fail to be rational, then you can say “bigotry.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/484 "2012-09-03T21:09:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I already answered this question. Because gay marriage causes no objective harm–and I’ve reached this conclusion after reading the arguments put forward by leading anti-SSMers, as well as court decisions and many other documents–opposition to it must be rooted in bigotry. Opposition to arranged marriages, forced marriages, marriages to underage persons, etc. is based in a rational belief that those forms of marriages cause objective harm, and so opposition to them is not bigotry. No, you are making a circular argument. As you say, you’ve already reached a conclusion. You haven’t found a non-bigoted reason for opposing SSM, but that doesn’t mean it’s not out there. My point is this: all this talk about “there’s no reason to exclude someone from marriage” is obviously false, and you’ve just said so. There can be good, rational reasons. The question is whether those reasons apply to gays, not whether they exist. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/485 "2012-09-03T21:10:13Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > you have to wait to hear the argument before declaring it to be bigotry. For how long? I have yet to hear an argument that wasn’t fairly categorizable as bigotry, btw. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/486 "2012-09-03T21:10:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Technically, this is true, just as I can’t call someone a racist until I hear their reasons for thinking that black people are demonspawn. Maybe this particular person has a cogent, reasonable, and persuasive argument in favor of the claim. Similarly, maybe this particular anti-SSM has discovered the objective harm of SSM that has eluded every other person so far, and will convince me. > > As a human, though, I play the odds. When I’ve heard dozens upon dozens of people make their arguments against same sex marriage, and every single one of them has an intolerance toward gay people at its heart, I’m not going to hold my breath that this particular anti-SSMer is going to be different. I didn’t ask you to hold your breath. I won’t either. Just don’t throw out the word bigot unless you’re sure of it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/487 "2012-09-03T21:12:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > For how long? Long enough to hear the argument. > [@](#): > > I have yet to hear an argument that wasn’t fairly categorizable as bigotry, btw. Have you? No, but I’m going to let every person give their reasons first before I judge that individual as a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/488 "2012-09-03T21:14:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So it’s possible to oppose gay marriage but not be a bigot (possibly), and you have to wait to hear the argument before declaring it to be bigotry. It’s also possible for a pink unicorn to still exist somewhere in the world. But we’ve gone over a fair bit of the world and haven’t found one yet. Odds are one doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/489 "2012-09-03T21:15:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You ignored me before when I pointed out your incorrect notion that I think hatred is involved. So let me say again: you are best mistaken when you say I think hatred is involved. I ignored the apparent contradiction in your posts. [You are the one who insisted that I had “truncated” the definition of bigot](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15448239#post15448239) by omitting the usage note (_underscoring yours_): especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. So, if you do not think hatred is involved, why was it so important to include that usage note with the definition? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nor do I think “unmoveable” is necessary. That is mistaken. I think an obstinate intolerance is involved. And yet, we have millions of people who have changed their views in the last few years. Just how obstinate do you think they have been? Gallup shows a steady trend, (despite a couple of dips and plateaus), of a bit more than 2% of the U.S. population changing their views over the last eight years. That is over 6 million changes of opinion each year and a total change of around 33,000,000 and I have seen no evidence that the numbers have reversed in the last year. (Heck, even the reversals show people changing their minds, not obstinately holding to preferred views.) That does not describe obstinate by any definition I would use. And, you and I appear to differ on a definition of “intolerance” when the only issue on which many of them appear to disagree with you is the single issue of the definition of marriage. Irritating? Yes. Frustrating? Yes. Bigoted? I don’t see where you come up with that description. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/490 "2012-09-03T21:32:04Z")
How obstinate does some have to be before the label attaches? Can we say the George Wallace was a bigot? Or does his late-in-life repudiation of his earlier views mean that he was never really a bigot, he was just taking a bit longer than other people to change his mind? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/491 "2012-09-03T21:34:15Z")
At some point, pretty early on at that, \*refusal \*to attach the label is what is obstinate. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/492 "2012-09-03T21:50:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How obstinate does some have to be before the label attaches? Can we say the George Wallace was a bigot? Or does his late-in-life repudiation of his earlier views mean that he was never really a bigot, he was just taking a bit longer than other people to change his mind? It is certainly possible for a person to put aside his or her bigotry while still being recognized for the bigotry they displayed earlier. Wallace made a concerted effort to oppose integration for many years. His bigotry at that period is established. Most of the people about whom we are talking have done nothing more than respond to opinion polls and, occasionally, cast a ballot, following which a number of them changed, (and continue to change), their views. I do not have some absolute number of months after which someone becomes a bigot–and I am perfectly willing to describe Dobson and Sprigg and any number of other people who have demonstrated a clear desire to denigrate or marginalize gay people as bigots. I am also willing to note that many other people who oppose SSM are bigots. I object to a categorization of every person who happens to disagree on one single issue out of all the possible issues surrounding human rights and the gay community as bigots. I think it makes more sense to evaluate people on a range of issues and see whether their overall attitude displays hatred or intolerance and whether they are locked into their opinion with no openness for discussion. Those are the traits of a bigot, not a single difference of opinon on a single topic. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/493 "2012-09-03T21:51:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > At some point, pretty early on at that, \*refusal \*to attach the label is what is obstinate. Take whining to The BBQ Pit, please. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/494 "2012-09-03T21:51:40Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Take whining to The BBQ Pit, please. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/495 "2012-09-03T22:20:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You missed the point. I decline to call it bigotry because for many people it fails to meet the definition of bigotry. > > If nothing else, the very fact that so many people have begun to change their views to an acceptance of same sex marriage proves my point. The definition calls for a bigot to be “_obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices_,” yet every year, more people accept the reality of same sex marriage as they come to understand its meaning differently. If they were really clinging to their opinions “obstinately and intolerantly,” the numbers of people who accept Same Sex Marriage would be anchored somewhere in the low 10% range of the population, yet every year the number changes as people who did not accept it change their opinions so that by 2010, the number of people who accept it in the U.S. exceeded 50%. Those numbers reflect changes in attitudes that are not possible among bigots who would be “obstinately and intolerantly devoted to” their “own opinions.” You seem to be reading that definition as saying that once a bigot, always a bigot. That’s clearly not true. The definition could work at a single point in time. Yes people are getting less bigoted, in no small part due to more exposure. The increase in support of SSM is surely at least partially due to the lack of the negative impact predicted by opponents. > [@](#): > > Among people who oppose Same Sex Marriage: > Many do not consider homosexuals lesser people; > Many have no hatred or disdain for homosexuals; > They simply cannot conceive of a same sex marriage > and your insistence that they are bigoted is simply name calling. As I’ve said before, bigotry is in the action, not in the justification of the action. Even if a person is convinced God supports their bigotry, it is still bigotry, and it was for those convinced of the divine inferiority of blacks. Second, we have no way of knowing how many of the people who claim no animosity really think. It is at least socially unacceptable to be obviously hateful today. But anti-Semitism wasn’t socially acceptable in the late 1940s either, and it still existed. Calling someone bigoted because they want to deny rights to someone just because they are other isn’t name calling. > [@](#): > > There are certainly bigots out there. Making the wierd claim that anyone who disagrees with your position is a _de facto_ bigot despite the large numbers who are not demonstrating the “obstinate” “devotion” to their opinions is just silly. I don’t care at all if anyone disagrees with me. It is the actions, and their effect on others, that count. I disagree with those who want to abolish marriage for civil unions, but they want this equally for all, and are obviously not bigoted. Heck, someone can be very uncomfortable with the notion of homosexuality and still support SSM out of fairness - that isn’t bigoted either. Most of us are internally bigoted about something - it is what we do with this that counts. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/496 "2012-09-03T22:25:14Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > It’s also possible for a pink unicorn to still exist somewhere in the world. > > But we’ve gone over a fair bit of the world and haven’t found one yet. Odds are one doesn’t exist. What a lame answer. You’ve searched the world, become an expert on issue, and can conclude without a doubt that you’re right and every argument on the other side is bigoted. That’s pretty close to a bigoted statement itself. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/497 "2012-09-03T22:25:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It is certainly possible for a person to put aside his or her bigotry while still being recognized for the bigotry they displayed earlier. Wallace made a concerted effort to oppose integration for many years. His bigotry at that period is established. Most of the people about whom we are talking have done nothing more than respond to opinion polls and, occasionally, cast a ballot, following which a number of them changed, (and continue to change), their views. > I do not have some absolute number of months after which someone becomes a bigot–and I am perfectly willing to describe Dobson and Sprigg and any number of other people who have demonstrated a clear desire to denigrate or marginalize gay people as bigots. > I am also willing to note that many other people who oppose SSM are bigots. I object to a categorization of every person who happens to disagree on one single issue out of all the possible issues surrounding human rights and the gay community as bigots. I think it makes more sense to evaluate people on a range of issues and see whether their overall attitude displays hatred or intolerance and whether they are locked into their opinion with no openness for discussion. Those are the traits of a bigot, not a single difference of opinon on a single topic. You need to define your bar of what a “bigot” is. > [@](#): > > [“a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance”](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot) After years of threads no one can come up with any real reason except for a dislike of others who are not like them as a reason to deny the right of same sex couples to wed. They are being “intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.” If it looks like a duck… ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/498 "2012-09-03T22:28:03Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What a lame answer. > > You’ve searched the world, become an expert on issue, and can conclude without a doubt that you’re right and every argument on the other side is bigoted. > > That’s pretty close to a bigoted statement itself. …Yeah, pretty much. I’m okay with saying that anyone wishing to deny a basic civil right to others is a bigot, unless they can present compelling evidence that granting that civil right will cause more harm than good. I’ve been following the SSM issue for 5+ years and have yet to hear any such evidence. Am I a bigot for asserting that anyone who says 2+2=balloon is automatically wrong? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/499 "2012-09-03T22:30:54Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > …Yeah, pretty much. I’m okay with saying that anyone wishing to deny a basic civil right to others is a bigot, unless they can present compelling evidence that granting that civil right will cause more harm than good. I’ve been following the SSM issue for 5+ years and have yet to hear any such evidence. > > Am I a bigot for asserting that anyone who says 2+2=balloon is automatically wrong? I would say without an active attempt on your part to restrict the bad at math’s rights to access sick loved ones, inherit property and/or deny guardianship of the children they raised due to arbitrary reasons like what gonads they have…no. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/500 "2012-09-03T23:08:04Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So it’s possible to oppose gay marriage but not be a bigot (possibly), and you have to wait to hear the argument before declaring it to be bigotry. > > If all arguments are exhausted and fail to be rational, then you can say “bigotry.” Well, we’ve been asking for several years, now. At this stage, I’m prepared to provisionally assume by default that no good reason for opposition exists. That is, of course, subject to change the moment a good reason comes to light, if one ever does. In the meantime, “bigot” makes a handy placeholder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=26)