# How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653 "2012-08-06T20:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/541 "2012-09-04T16:22:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The Prop 8 argument, in court, weren’t bigoted. You should discuss this with those on this thread who think that’s not possible, not me. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/542 "2012-09-04T16:23:02Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s absurd. I don’t think that. One opinion can be wrong, dead wrong. If I thought that, I would never argue. > > I simply think that you cannot judge an argument before you’ve actually heard it. > > Do you disagree? What makes you think we haven’t heard all the arguments? My GOD, we’ve been hearing the arguments about why gay rights is all wrong ALL OUR LIVES! I’ve had 40-odd (and odd, I’ll admit) years of it. If I haven’t heard every one of those arguments countless times, I’ll eat any article of clothing you care to name. It’s awfully condescending to try to tell those of us who are most affected by these arguments that we might have missed THE good one. We hear them constantly, whether we want to or not, sometimes, and I’d guess that the vast majority of us have never heard one that was actually a good argument and not based in hatred or disdain. The one who’s going around being arrogant and smug is the one who claims to know better than we homosexuals whether we homosexuals have heard all of the arguments against SSM. That’s also the one who’s going around in other threads telling African-descended Dopers whether they have the right to decide if throwing peanuts at an African-American woman and saying “this is how we feed the animals” is racist. You may actually not hold the belief that I attributed to you, and if you really don’t, I apologize, but it sure seems like you hold something a lot like it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/543 "2012-09-04T16:23:59Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I think everyone is open to the idea one exists, No, several people here are completely closed to that idea. > [@](#): > > the fact that in years no one has provided one shows it is rare. I’d say it’s rare too. > [@](#): > > Yetties and Unicorns may be real but it would be silly to life as if they were. Arguments about gay marriage are hardly the same thing as unicorns. We’ve only been having this debate in this country about ten years or so. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/544 "2012-09-04T16:24:48Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You should discuss this with those on this thread who think that’s not possible, not me. The last I looked basing laws purely on scripture was pretty antithetical to the concept of the 1st amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/545 "2012-09-04T16:28:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And at no time have I claimed that bigotry does not exist. I have simply noted that the mass declaration of bigotry against millions of people based on a single issue is not accurate. Bigotry can be single-issue, as you note earlier: someone who opposes interracial marriage can be declared a bigot based solely on that stance. > [@](#): > > Marriage has occurred in every society in history and appears throughout many works of literature, but the word marriage has not been used, that I can find, to describe any same sex union prior to 1970. Changing that definition is not merely a change in disctionaries, but a change in the way one views much of the world. The overused word in business, these days, is paradigm, but changing the meaning of the word marriage is very much a world changing paradigm shift that does not need to rest on bigotry to evoke opposition. Once one has made that paradigm shift, everything seems clear that SSM should be valid, but that is a huge paradigm shift for many people. Dismissing a person’s ability to make that shift as bigotry is an easy way to igore the effort it might take for them to make that shift. I am actually surprised that so many people have been able to make that shift, not that there is still opposition to SSM. Which is why I’m willing to give folks a week, once they’ve encountered the arguments. Here are the things I expect someone to realize during that week: 1. Words change in meaning all the time. Forty years ago, nobody used the word “Net” to refer to an interconnected set of computers through which you could argue politics or look at naughty pictures. But nobody is agitating for laws preventing government documents from using “net” to refer to anything outside of fishing equipment. Instead, people recognize that words change in meaning all the time. 2. A major part of the reason why “marriage” didn’t refer to SSM in the past is because the main government recognition given to same-sex couples was criminal sanctions. The word’s meaning was heteronormative in large part because of rampant and systemic homophobia. Maybe the traditional meaning of the word doesn’t carry that much moral weight. 3. In the end, you have to decide either to change the meaning of the word, or to deny a basic right to millions of people based on nothing more than their personal sexual preference. Changing the word’s meaning does far less harm than the alternative. None of these points–words change, the past was bigoted, changing the word ain’t a big deal–is complicated or hard to figure out. Giving someone a week to figure them out seems entirely too generous; it shouldn’t really take longer than an hour. But heck, take the full week. Now, I’ll make a concession I haven’t made before. There may be someone with a mental illness who insists, in Rainmanian grandeur, that words mean what they mean what they mean what they mean what they mean. If a person suffers from such a mental disorder, then sure, they may not be a bigot. But if you’re aware that words change in meaning, there’s not really an excuse for failing to realize the three points above. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/546 "2012-09-04T16:29:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What makes you think we haven’t heard all the arguments? My GOD, we’ve been hearing the arguments about why gay rights is all wrong ALL OUR LIVES! I’ve had 40-odd (and odd, I’ll admit) years of it. If I haven’t heard every one of those arguments countless times, I’ll eat any article of clothing you care to name. It’s awfully condescending to try to tell those of us who are most affected by these arguments that we might have missed THE good one. We hear them constantly, whether we want to or not, sometimes, and I’d guess that the vast majority of us have never heard one that was actually a good argument and not based in hatred or disdain. Yeah, you’ve heard it all, old man, no need to listen to anyone. Your mind is made up! You may make a good bigot some day. > [@](#): > > The one who’s going around being arrogant and smug is the one who claims to know better than we homosexuals whether we homosexuals have heard all of the arguments against SSM. No, that’s called logic. It is logically impossible for you to claim that you’ve heard every possible rational argument about anything. > [@](#): > > That’s also the one who’s going around in other threads telling African-descended Dopers whether they have the right to decide if throwing peanuts at an African-American woman and saying “this is how we feed the animals” is racist. Yep. You do not have the right to decide what is in someone elses’ head, regardless of your race. In fact, being black doesn’t always qualify you to know better than whites what is going on in a white person’s head, does it? I’m reminded of an interview I saw with a black woman entertainer (Lena Horne, I think, but I’m not sure) who said she thought white people all hated her because they were cold and distant. Then segregation ended and she got to hang out with whites more, and she found that they were more cold and distant with each other too. It wasn’t racism, it was just how they were with everyone. > [@](#): > > You may actually not hold the belief that I attributed to you, and if you really don’t, I apologize, but it sure seems like you hold something a lot like it. Wait, now you’re saying you have to wait to hear what I have to say before judging it? (And which belief are you talking about?) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/547 "2012-09-04T16:30:49Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The last I looked basing laws purely on scripture was pretty antithetical to the concept of the 1st amendment. So all objections to gay marriage are based on scripture? If you think that, I don’t think you’ve got any basis for saying that you’ve heard all the arguments. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/548 "2012-09-04T16:34:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So all objections to gay marriage are based on scripture? > > If you think that, I don’t think you’ve got any basis for saying that you’ve heard all the arguments. Provide examples or evidence of exceptions, without one iota of evidence of their existence yes…they don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/549 "2012-09-04T16:39:06Z")
So lance strongarm, are you sticking to your “appeal to ignorance” stance? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/550 "2012-09-04T16:40:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Now, I’ll make a concession I haven’t made before. There may be someone with a mental illness who insists, in Rainmanian grandeur, that words mean what they mean what they mean what they mean what they mean. If a person suffers from such a mental disorder, then sure, they may not be a bigot. Interesting point. Someone might also be mentally ill and sincerely believe the delusion that gay marriage will bring about Martian invasion or some other calamity. It’s not a rational belief, but I’ll grant it’s not a bigoted one, at least in the conventional sense. Of course, if someone is willing to define religious belief as mental illness, I might end up letting someone who thinks gay marriage will bring about the Apocalypse off the bigot-hook, too. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/551 "2012-09-04T16:45:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Provide examples or evidence of exceptions, without one iota of evidence of their existence yes…they don’t exist. > **[Argument from ignorance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)** > > Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), or appeal to ignorance,\[a\] is an informal fallacy where something is claimed to be true or false because of a lack of evidence to the contrary. > The fallacy is committed when one asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. If a proposition has not yet been proven true, one is not entitled to conclude, solely on that basis, that it is false,... (Funny, someone else just tried to use this on me on another thread just seconds ago.) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/552 "2012-09-04T16:46:07Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So lance strongarm, are you sticking to your “appeal to ignorance” stance? That’s YOUR stance, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/553 "2012-09-04T16:47:21Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s YOUR stance, not mine. OK I’m done, you are obviously not a serious poster. Playing the “nut-uh” game may get your opponent to quit arguing but it doesn’t win the debate. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/554 "2012-09-04T16:49:21Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > OK I’m done, you are obviously not a serious poster. Bye then. No need for you to discuss anything further - you know everything there is to know. Ironic, in a thread about bigotry. > [@](#): > > Playing the “nut-uh” game may get your opponent to quit arguing but it doesn’t win the debate. Thanks for stopping that then. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/555 "2012-09-04T16:48:24Z")
Ironically, lance isn’t listening to _our_ arguments and by all indications has already made up his mind about at least some of us. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/556 "2012-09-04T16:50:21Z")
Ha, I called it first. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/557 "2012-09-04T16:50:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Ironically, lance isn’t listening to _our_ arguments Wait - are you saying one should listen to someone else’s arguments before judging them? By all means, present an argument. I’ll listen, without declaring that it can’t possibly be rational first. > [@](#): > > and by all indications has already made up his mind about at least some of us. Now you’re presuming to put thoughts in my head too. Shocking. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/558 "2012-09-04T16:56:57Z")
Well, I could quote relevant passages that would indicate that either those thoughts _are_ in your head, or you’re being misleading about the thoughts that are _really_ in your head, but by now I figure you’ve exhausted whatever point you were trying to make so I’ll just mock you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/559 "2012-09-04T17:01:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s YOUR stance, not mine. [Ahem](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=664358). ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/560 "2012-09-04T17:02:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, I could quote relevant passages that would indicate that either those thoughts _are_ in your head, or you’re being misleading about the thoughts that are _really_ in your head, but by now I figure you’ve exhausted whatever point you were trying to make so I’ll just mock you. Thanks for admitting that you’ve run out of rational arguments. I can now call you bigoted! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=29)