# How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653 "2012-08-06T20:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/41 "2012-08-07T16:56:32Z")
**ITR Champion** , I think you just flat-out missed a lot of the criticism. Obama got some breaks because he was still better than most Republicans and because he did institute other pro-gay rights policies while saying he opposed same-sex marriage, and people may have also cut him some slack because they felt he was adopting the most politically tenable position. But he was definitely subject to plenty of criticism for his stance on these issues. And the answer to the question in the OP is “All of them.” The anti-gay rights position is inherently bigoted. In a conversation I would definitely address someone who supports gay rights but is uncomortable with the use of the word marriage in a different way than I would address Dan Cathy or a “God Hates Fags” type, but the stance is wrong and is prejudiced regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/42 "2012-08-07T17:18:41Z")
A tiny hijack: what does Cathay mean when he states that “we are married to our first wives”? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/43 "2012-08-07T17:19:45Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I’m not even sure I agree that the two comments are identical or as-close-to-identical-to-make-no-difference. > > The most obvious difference is that the first explicitly mentions the Bible, and that’s going to come with a lot of gay-hating, bigoted baggage. It’s absolutely unambiguous that the reason the speaker is against gay marriage is because of his hateful bigoted religion. (Not to mention that’s it’s just ignorant and plain \*wrong \*- the Biblical tradition of marriage is a polygynous, sometimes pedophilic, chattel one, not a monogamous heterosexual consenting one.) > > Obama’s comment, while sad and misguided, I’ve heard in the larger context of his interview and always understood as coming from the traditional \*American \*definition of marriage. In 2008, when Rick Warren asked Obama to define marriage, he answered, “I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me it is also a sacred union. God is in the mix.” That sounds to me like Obama giving an explicitly religious justification for his definition of marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/44 "2012-08-07T17:23:04Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > A tiny hijack: what does Cathay mean when he states that “we are married to our first wives”? He means his company also frowns on divorce. It’s a somewhat weird attempt at a more positive phrasing: “our corporate leaders are married to our first wives” instead of “they haven’t been divorced.” ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/45 "2012-08-07T17:45:40Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In 2008, when Rick Warren asked Obama to define marriage, he answered, “I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me it is also a sacred union. God is in the mix.” That sounds to me like Obama giving an explicitly religious justification for his definition of marriage. That sounds to me like Obama giving \*two \*definitions of marriage - one the legal one shared by the majority of legislatures in the US at the time, and one his personal definition of what marriage means to him. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/46 "2012-08-07T18:00:58Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > I saw a lot of people calling Obama on his views on Gay Marriage. Yes, but in my experience never in language remotely similar to what’s being hurled against Cathy. In the Salon [piece](http://www.salon.com/2012/08/06/five_lessons_from_chick_fil_a/) I linked to, Cathy is called hateful and a ranter and his supporters have “paranoia, the sheer stupidity and the irrational animus of a bewildered herd”, and so forth. [Elsewhere](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/08/chick_fil_a_controversy_why_dan_cathy_s_statements_are_dangerous_.html): “Imagine if Elmer Fudd had a love child with Jesse Helms’ mother, and there, I thought to myself, you have Dan Cathy,” “bigoted asshole”, etc… You can find stuff like this on just about any liberal site on the internet. I would be highly surprised to see the people who say these things using the same language towards Obama or any other Democrat because of their stance on gay marriage. > [@Miller](#): > > The most important difference between the two people is that, while Obama was saying things that were manifestly no different than what Cathy is saying, Obama never actually did anything. He never visibly acted on those beliefs. The controversy around Cathy erupted precisely because he was donating very large amounts of money to translate his beliefs into policy. Then consider the position of most Democrats for many years, prior to Obama. For example, on the Defense of Marriage Act, many Democrats voted in favor of it in 1996, including liberal favorites such as Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Paul Wellstone, Pat Leahy, and Bill Bradley. That certainly qualifies as doing something, so why weren’t those guys blased as being “bigoted assholes”, “hatemongers”, the illegitimate half-brother of Jesse Helms, and so forth? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/47 "2012-08-07T18:01:29Z")
ITR, Abraham Lincoln made some comments about the superiority of white people over black people. His comments are, devoid of context, worse than many of David Duke’s comments about race. Would you call Lincoln the greater racist, therefore? I wouldn’t. I’d certainly say he was racist, but I’d also be willing to consider the cultural environment in which he made those comments. Lincoln lived in a society in which white people overwhelmingly tended to say and believe really racist shit; to the extent that anyone believed otherwise, they were swimming against the cultural current. David Duke is swimming against the cultural current, only in the opposite direction. I grade racism on a curve. Something similar may apply here. The move toward acceptance of SSM has been astonishingly rapid, and four years is a really long time (look where the issue was in 2008). Obama made some bigoted comments then, absolutely. But even then he was swimming against the homophobic current toward equality. Cathy, in making similar comments now, is swimming against the current in the opposite direction. So, yes. Obama was a bigot then. But I’ll grade him on a curve. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/48 "2012-08-07T18:03:15Z")
\*\*How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. \*\* Simple. None of them are. They are just differences of opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/49 "2012-08-07T18:03:52Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Then consider the position of most Democrats for many years, prior to Obama. You may have noticed that public opinion on these issues has changed a lot in the last 10 years. If your question is why people are more critical of the party that is (for the most part) steadfastly wrong on this issue instead of the one that has mostly got it right - does that really require an answer? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/50 "2012-08-07T18:10:02Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Simple. None of them are. They are just differences of opinion. “The Non Sequitur Society: we may not make sense, but we sure do like pizza!” Protip, Clothahump: most hateful, bigoted statements ARE opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/51 "2012-08-07T18:35:05Z")
If you’re bigoted because your dad told you nonsense around the dinner table or your priest told you nonsense from his pulpit, it doesn’t matter. You’re still bigoted. Denying gays marriage requires that you find them less than you. That they will somehow \*dirty \*the institution. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/52 "2012-08-07T18:42:35Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > …Yet, oddly enough, there are plenty of people who say the same thing and are not labeled by the left as hateful, bigoted ranters. To cite just one of the more obvious examples, President Obama held the same position as Dan Cathy on gay marriage until May 8 of this year. In his words: > > "I have been to this point unwilling to sign on to same-sex marriage primarily because of my understandings of the traditional definitions of marriage.” I’m going to make a suggestion which some of you might find shocking, so those of a nervous disposition should look away. President Obama is a professional politician. Sometimes he tells lies. Voters need to be smart about the lies of their political leaders, to interpret them correctly. In this case, I believe the president really meant something like “personally I think SSM is uncontroversial and inevitable, but for the time being I’m going to have to say I’m against it, for self-evidently weak reasons, until it becomes politically expedient for me to _come out_ in favour”. I could be wrong in this case, but it would certainly be naive to take any politician’s words at face value all the time. On review, I see I got the tenses wrong. The quote from the president actually resolves to “I am in favour of allowing SSM”, so if that is the most anti-gay quote the OP could find then I’m struggling to see any parity with the bigots’ views. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/53 "2012-08-07T18:44:15Z")
Obama was simply lying. He knew he couldn’t get elected if he supported gay marriage, and he couldn’t get laid if he told Michelle he didn’t like her new haircut. No one with a functioning brain actually opposes SSM for any reason other than bigotry. People don’t care about “the definition of marriage”. I don’t remember people opposing the Macintosh because it changed the definition of “icon”. It just makes people fell all squicky to think about people of the same sex being intimate. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/54 "2012-08-07T18:58:26Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Then consider the position of most Democrats for many years, prior to Obama. For example, on the Defense of Marriage Act, many Democrats voted in favor of it in 1996, including liberal favorites such as Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Paul Wellstone, Pat Leahy, and Bill Bradley. That certainly qualifies as doing something, so why weren’t those guys blased as being “bigoted assholes”, “hatemongers”, the illegitimate half-brother of Jesse Helms, and so forth? Who says they weren’t? The biggest difference between now and then is gay rights advocates have grown more powerful and are now recognized across a broader media landscape. Those who voted for the defense of marriage act in 1996 were certainly called bigots, the only reason you might not have heard them called that is very few were listening to the gay community at that time. You can go back and listen to Ted Kennedy and Barny Frank’s debates on the bill and you’ll see they certainly considered those voting for the bill to be bigots. Kennedy spent most his time scolding the Republicans rather then his own party while Frank didn’t hold back and was willing to call out both sides. The Democratic party has evolved considerable over the past decade those who were called bigots ten years ago aren’t called bigots today because they changed. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/55 "2012-08-07T19:28:38Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Then consider the position of most Democrats for many years, prior to Obama. For example, on the Defense of Marriage Act, many Democrats voted in favor of it in 1996, including liberal favorites such as Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Paul Wellstone, Pat Leahy, and Bill Bradley. That certainly qualifies as doing something, so why weren’t those guys blased as being “bigoted assholes”, “hatemongers”, the illegitimate half-brother of Jesse Helms, and so forth? I wouldn’t call them bigoted assholes, but I will say that their vote was grounded in prejudice. Still, most of them have since renounced their previous position. Let me know when Orrin Hatch does the same. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/56 "2012-08-07T20:10:26Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Then consider the position of most Democrats for many years, prior to Obama. For example, on the Defense of Marriage Act, many Democrats voted in favor of it in 1996, including liberal favorites such as Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Paul Wellstone, Pat Leahy, and Bill Bradley. That certainly qualifies as doing something, so why weren’t those guys blased as being “bigoted assholes”, “hatemongers”, the illegitimate half-brother of Jesse Helms, and so forth? You realize that was _fifteen years_ ago, right? Fifteen years ago, “I don’t hate gays, I just think they shouldn’t get married,” was about as progressive an opinion as you could hope to find out of a mainstream politician. Were those politicians still bigoted? Yes, of course they were. And plenty of people in the gay community were more than willing to call them on it - but their positions were pretty well in line with mainstream liberal ideas of the time, so outside of the gay community, most people weren’t criticizing them too much. And even among those willing to call them out, most of their energies were likely reserved for conservatives, who were still arguing that gay should be rounded up in put in camps. So, yes, they were bigoted, but they were still only a fraction as hateful as their opponents on the other side of the aisle. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/57 "2012-08-07T20:41:29Z")
A. Was once wrong, learned better. B. Was once wrong, insists on _staying_ wrong. My God, ITR, you’re right - those are EXACTLY THE SAME! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/58 "2012-08-07T20:47:00Z")
> **[Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - 2010-01-02](https://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=1748)** > > Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - 2010-01-02 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/59 "2012-08-07T20:50:34Z")
Hypocrite and flip-flopper are often very weak charges, but on this issue they’re a really pathetic last ditch insult. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/60 "2012-08-07T21:17:44Z")
So, wait, **Clothahump** , if someone were to say something like “Any man who wants to get married to another man should be dragged out back and shot”, that would just be an opinion, and not at all hateful? Because that’s the logical implication of what you said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=4)