# How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653 "2012-08-06T20:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/601 "2012-09-05T16:37:44Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > That it’s ALWAYS been between a man and a woman, is one of the stupidest arguments ever. There was a time when, ‘it had always been…’, that children worked in mines, that women were denied education, that slavery existed. > > Then things changed. When people’s consciousness was raised, popular opinion turned, on all of these, ‘it’s ALWAYS been’, issues. > > The wind of change has already blown through on this issue. Good luck to those intending to turn back time, I don’t see it happening. Against the back drop of changing societal views; I agree. That’s why I support gay marriage. > [@](#): > > All instances of homosexuals being denied the right to marry their partner are both hateful and bigoted. That doesn’t necessarily follow. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/602 "2012-09-05T16:41:31Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Civil rights involve basic rights that everyone has - the right to vote, etc. - and the right to equal access to them without regard to irrational factors like race, sex, etc. as defined by law. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/603 "2012-09-05T16:51:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Cite? “A civil right is an enforceable right or privilege, which if interfered with by another gives rise to an action for injury. Examples of civil rights are freedom of speech, press, and assembly; the right to vote; freedom from involuntary servitude; and the right to equality in public places. Discrimination occurs when the civil rights of an individual are denied or interfered with because of their membership in a particular group or class. Various jurisdictions have enacted statutes to prevent discrimination based on a person’s race, sex, religion, age, previous condition of servitude, physical limitation, national origin, and in some instances sexual orientation.” > **[civil rights](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/civil_rights)** ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/604 "2012-09-05T17:03:09Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > “A civil right is an enforceable right or privilege, which if interfered with by another gives rise to an action for injury. Examples of civil rights are freedom of speech, press, and assembly; the right to vote; freedom from involuntary servitude; and the right to equality in public places. Discrimination occurs when the civil rights of an individual are denied or interfered with because of their membership in a particular group or class. Various jurisdictions have enacted statutes to prevent discrimination based on a person’s race, sex, religion, age, previous condition of servitude, physical limitation, national origin, and in some instances sexual orientation.” > > [civil rights | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/civil_rights) Yet you have to register to vote 🙂 And it was denied to people based on gender within recent history. Note you also have to get permits to rally or to march. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/605 "2012-09-05T18:36:43Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yet you have to register to vote 🙂 And it was denied to people based on gender within recent history. > > Note you also have to get permits to rally or to march. At this point, yes, we’re probably at a point in our history where, marriage is just like voting or rallying. And I’m glad. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/606 "2012-09-05T20:06:42Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > “A civil right is an enforceable right or privilege, which if interfered with by another gives rise to an action for injury. Examples of civil rights are freedom of speech, press, and assembly; the right to vote; freedom from involuntary servitude; and the right to equality in public places. Discrimination occurs when the civil rights of an individual are denied or interfered with because of their membership in a particular group or class. Various jurisdictions have enacted statutes to prevent discrimination based on a person’s race, sex, religion, age, previous condition of servitude, physical limitation, national origin, and in some instances sexual orientation.” > > [civil rights | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/civil_rights) When you google “civil rights” and take the first non-Wikipedia link offered, it’d behoove you to read further down the link than you did: > [@your cite](#): > > The most prominent civil rights legislation since reconstruction is the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Decisions of the Supreme Court at the time limited Congressional enforcement of the 14th Amendment to state, rather than individual, action. (Since 1964 the Supreme Court has expanded the reach of the 14th Amendment in some situations to individuals discriminating on their own). Therefore, in order to reach the actions of individuals, Congress, using its power to regulate interstate commerce, enacted the Civil Rights Act of 1964 under Title 42, Chapter 21 of the United States Code. Discrimination based on “race, color, religion, or national origin” in public establishments that have a connection to interstate commerce or are supported by the state is prohibited. See 42 U.S.C. § 2000a. Public establishments include places of public accommodation (e.g., hotels, motels, and trailer parks), restaurants, gas stations, bars, taverns, and places of entertainment in general. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and subsequent legislation also declared a strong legislative policy against discrimination in public schools and colleges which aided in desegregation. Title VI of the Civil Rights Act prohibits discrimination in federally funded programs. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act prohibits employment discrimination where the employer is engaged in interstate commerce. Congress has passed numerous other laws dealing with employment discrimination. See Employment Discrimination. Note that the law that required parity in public accommodations and public schools was the Civil Rights Act. Your claim that such parity isn’t a civil right in the US is rather suspect. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/607 "2012-09-05T21:39:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Note that the law that required parity in public accommodations and public schools was the Civil Rights Act. Your claim that such parity isn’t a civil right in the US is rather suspect. I didn’t claim that equal access wasn’t a civil right, I said the thing itself isn’t. You have no “right” to public schools. The state could decide to shut them down. If it does have public schools, it just allow access without regard to race, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/608 "2012-09-05T23:43:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Marriage isn’t quite the same thing as a right though. It’s by definition a privilege, otherwise we’d allow absolutely anyone to marry except perhaps children. > > It’s simply not as simple an issue as discrimination in hiring or housing or whatever, where race or sexual orientation have no logical connection. You imply in the post above that the fact that marriage is a “privilege” in your peculiar definition is significant, and that it’s different therefore from hiring or housing. When pressed, you say: > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I didn’t claim that equal access wasn’t a civil right, I said the thing itself isn’t. You have no “right” to public schools. The state could decide to shut them down. If it does have public schools, it just allow access without regard to race, etc. Well, of course. This pedantic difference may be technically correct, but it’s totally pedantic. Instead of talking about the right to marriage, as every significant court case does, to satisfy this bizarre little distinction all we have to do is talk about the right to equal access to marriage. And then we’re right back where we started. Even if you want to insist that marriage is a privilege, not a right, equal access to marriage is a right, not a privilege. Satisfied? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/609 "2012-09-06T00:34:24Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yet you have to register to vote 🙂 And it was denied to people based on gender within recent history. Yep; it took a Constitutional Amendment to fix this. What’s your point? > [@](#): > > Note you also have to get permits to rally or to march. Fortunately, we already have a Constitutional Amendment that says this right cannot be infringed. A relatively open permitting process is not an infringement, in itself. If it becomes abused – e.g., one party’s applications are approved but another party’s applications are denied – then the law (and the Constitution) are being violated. We have to be vigilant against this kind of abuse. (Just as we have seen the abuse of building permits requested for non-Christian churches. The case in Escondido, California, was instructive: in the time in which a request for a permit to build a Krishnan church was denied, permits for several Christian churches were granted.) Rights have to be defended and protected and safeguarded, for there is no shortage of those who will seek to deny them. Many of those persons are bigots. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/610 "2012-09-06T00:53:47Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And probably, on another board, a bunch of people who all oppose gay marriage, and consider themselves to be the rational ones, are saying the same thing about the pro-gay marriage side. Which, if they really don’t have any new fact based reasonble arguments , means nothing at all to this discussion. Justification, is not at all the same as factual , logical and reasonable. If your point is some reasonable argumant might possibly exist out there somewhere , it’s a rather obvious and pointless argument to make. It’s akin to “You can’t prove God doesn’t exist” Yes we know, So freakin what? Is it “I don’t believe any fact based reasonable arguments agasint SSM exist.” Well you shouldn’t believe that because even though we’ve examined all that have made iot to the public discussion and found them lacking one still might be out there,…somewhere. Well, if and when one shows up I’ll consider it them. In the meantime I’ll believe what my considerable efforts this far, have shown me. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/611 "2012-09-06T01:03:34Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Okay, I guess there’s nothing more to discuss. Just call anyone who disagrees a bigot. If someone opposes SSM, I’m happy to ask them “Why is that?” even though I fully expect to hear some variation of every argument I’ve already heard and examined. If and when someone presents something that hasn’t already been rehashed many times over, I’ll consider it. Until then it’s safe and not arrogant to say, the opposition to SSM is based on bigotry. Would it feel better to qualify it with “Based on all the arguments I’ve heard to date” because I kinda thought that was obviously implied. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/612 "2012-09-06T06:41:16Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Which, if they really don’t have any new fact based reasonble arguments , means nothing at all to this discussion. Justification, is not at all the same as factual , logical and reasonable. > > If your point is some reasonable argumant might possibly exist out there somewhere , it’s a rather obvious and pointless argument to make. It’s akin to “You can’t prove God doesn’t exist” > > Yes we know, So freakin what? > > Is it > > “I don’t believe any fact based reasonable arguments agasint SSM exist.” > > Well you shouldn’t believe that because even though we’ve examined all that have made iot to the public discussion and found them lacking one still might be out there,…somewhere. > > Well, if and when one shows up I’ll consider it them. In the meantime I’ll believe what my considerable efforts this far, have shown me. I asked **LHOD** upthread what he meant by “principled disagreement” I never got an answer. Perhaps you could define what you mean as “reasonable”. Surely you don’t mean that it has to be an argument you, personally, find convincing, right? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/613 "2012-09-06T08:29:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Yep; it took a Constitutional Amendment to fix this. What’s your point? > > Fortunately, we already have a Constitutional Amendment that says this right cannot be infringed. A relatively open permitting process is not an infringement, in itself. If it becomes abused – e.g., one party’s applications are approved but another party’s applications are denied – then the law (and the Constitution) are being violated. We have to be vigilant against this kind of abuse. > > (Just as we have seen the abuse of building permits requested for non-Christian churches. The case in Escondido, California, was instructive: in the time in which a request for a permit to build a Krishnan church was denied, permits for several Christian churches were granted.) > > Rights have to be defended and protected and safeguarded, for there is no shortage of those who will seek to deny them. Many of those persons are bigots. This was in response to lance armstrongs false claim that a right could not require a permit to exercise, the nature of how that was codified is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/614 "2012-09-06T13:02:10Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > If someone opposes SSM, I’m happy to ask them “Why is that?” even though I fully expect to hear some variation of every argument I’ve already heard and examined. > If and when someone presents something that hasn’t already been rehashed many times over, I’ll consider it. Until then it’s safe and not arrogant to say, the opposition to SSM is based on bigotry. You don’t see how those two statements conflict though? You can’t declare someone’s views are bigoted before you even hear them. > [@](#): > > Would it feel better to qualify it with “Based on all the arguments I’ve heard to date” because I kinda thought that was obviously implied. That would be absolutely perfect! I don’t think it was implied at all. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/615 "2012-09-06T13:05:03Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Which, if they really don’t have any new fact based reasonble arguments , means nothing at all to this discussion. Justification, is not at all the same as factual , logical and reasonable. > > If your point is some reasonable argumant might possibly exist out there somewhere , it’s a rather obvious and pointless argument to make. It’s akin to “You can’t prove God doesn’t exist” > > Yes we know, So freakin what? > > Is it > > “I don’t believe any fact based reasonable arguments agasint SSM exist.” > > Well you shouldn’t believe that because even though we’ve examined all that have made iot to the public discussion and found them lacking one still might be out there,…somewhere. Yep. This debate about gay marriage is not even as old as I am. I’ve certainly learned in my lifetime that I don’t know everything and haven’t heard ever viewpoint or argument, and I’ve changed my mind about things that were rational in favor of other equally rational arguments. I don’t think we can just declare victory and walk away muttering “bigots!” > [@](#): > > Well, if and when one shows up I’ll consider it them. So you’re open to the possibility that one might show up? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/616 "2012-09-06T15:16:39Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I don’t think we can just declare victory and walk away muttering “bigots!” I think we can. > [@](#): > > So you’re open to the possibility that one might show up? Hey, if a zombie epidemic breaks out and we figure out that marrying a same-sex partner somehow results in rising from the grave to feast on human flesh when you die, I’ll be all for banning it then. But if a good argument didn’t show up during that frenzy of SSM-banning amendments a couple years back, I don’t think one will ever show. There’s a lot of people against SSM for icky or religious reasons; if someone had a compelling, rational, secular reason it would have been brought out by now. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/617 "2012-09-06T15:36:46Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > But if a good argument didn’t show up during that frenzy of SSM-banning amendments a couple years back, I don’t think one will ever show. There’s a lot of people against SSM for icky or religious reasons; if someone had a compelling, rational, secular reason it would have been brought out by now. You forgot the semantic one of “That’s not what ‘marriage’ means.” Which of course is an entirely valid reason to create an entirely separate (but equal!) set of rights. Yup. Perfectly valid. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/618 "2012-09-06T15:44:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So you’re open to the possibility that one might show up? Is it your view that we have to refrain forever from describing this position as bigoted because someday a non-bigoted argument against same-sex marriage might appear? This issue has been debated at great length in the public sphere over the last decade and I don’t think any new arguments are going to magically appear. Even if they _could_ appear, at some point it’s entirely reasonable to draw a conclusion based on the arguments that have been used. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/619 "2012-09-06T15:53:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is it your view that we have to refrain forever from describing this position as bigoted because someday a non-bigoted argument against same-sex marriage might appear? You’re talking about two different positions though, one that you haven’t even heard yet. If you hear a bigoted position, by all means call it bigoted. The one you haven’t heard yet you should reserve judgement on. > [@](#): > > This issue has been debated at great length in the public sphere over the last decade and I don’t think any new arguments are going to magically appear. Me neither. Until they do, we don’t need to discuss them. > [@](#): > > Even if they _could_ appear, at some point it’s entirely reasonable to draw a conclusion based on the arguments that have been used. To draw a conclusion about what? Those arguments? Sure, those. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/620 "2012-09-06T15:55:24Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > But if a good argument didn’t show up during that frenzy of SSM-banning amendments a couple years back, I don’t think one will ever show. There’s a lot of people against SSM for icky or religious reasons; if someone had a compelling, rational, secular reason it would have been brought out by now. You’re confusing “good” and “rational” again. I am pro-gay marriage. I reject anti-gay marriage arguments as wrong. That doesn’t mean all of them are bigoted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=32)