# How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653 "2012-08-06T20:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/761 "2012-09-10T04:20:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes, but it’s normal for only a tiny percent of the population. For the majority it is the opposite. And again the question rings out: “So what?” This is another pointless quibble because what **cosmosdan** said made sense and it was accurate. He said being gay is normal. Quoting from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): “regular,” “not unusual,” “natural.” All of those apply. Most people are straight, some are gay. Both are normal. Anyway doesn’t this obviate your concern about kids becoming confused about their sexuality? You say most people don’t feel same-sex attraction, so allowing gay couples to marry and calling it marriage shouldn’t change that, should it? I’m still waiting for you to explain the problem this is going to cause. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/762 "2012-09-10T04:39:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And again the question rings out: “So what?” This is another pointless quibble because what **cosmosdan** said made sense and it was accurate. He said being gay is normal. Quoting from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): “regular,” “not unusual,” “natural.” All of those apply. Most people are straight, some are gay. Both are normal. > > Anyway doesn’t this obviate your concern about kids becoming confused about their sexuality? You say most people don’t feel same-sex attraction, so allowing gay couples to marry and calling it marriage shouldn’t change that, should it? I’m still waiting for you to explain the problem this is going to cause. Are you really claiming that seeing gay people would turn people gay? I don’t know about you but seeing two guys walking hand in hand doesn’t make me want to have sex with them. [And yes being gay is normal, it is observed in similar percentages in other mammals](http://endo.endojournals.org/content/145/2/478.abstract) And no, the nuclear family is NOT ideal, an involved extended family tends to improve outcomes. Should we require grandmothers to live within 3 miles of their grand-kids? And if they don’t their children will be denied hospital visits and survivor-ship benefits? The nuclear family is not “traditional” either. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/763 "2012-09-10T04:44:18Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Are you really claiming that seeing gay people would turn people gay? > > I don’t know about you but seeing two guys walking hand in hand doesn’t make me want to have sex with them. > > [And yes being gay is normal, it is observed in similar percentages in other mammals](http://endo.endojournals.org/content/145/2/478.abstract) > > And no, the nuclear family is NOT ideal, an involved extended family tends to improve outcomes. Should we require grandmothers to live within 3 miles of their grand-kids? And if they don’t their children will be denied hospital visits and survivor-ship benefits? > > The nuclear family is not “traditional” either. I think you meant to direct this at **magellan01** , not **Marley23**? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/764 "2012-09-10T04:50:20Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Are you really claiming that seeing gay people would turn people gay? **magellan01** claimed that if same-sex marriages are called marriages, kids who are merely experimenting with same-sex physicality will get confused and think they’re gay. Because… something about guardrails. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/765 "2012-09-10T05:04:35Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Even if marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal situation for raising kids, which I do not believe it to be, you’re simply letting perfect be the enemy of good. Single parents are less ideal than a married couple; should we take their kids away from them? What about gay single parents? > > If you find yourself making excuses for the less-than-ideal hetero parents but not for the less-than-ideal gay parents, you’re bigoted. This! Even if I were to believe that a SSM “isn’t as good” as the “ideal” mixed sex marriage – why employ the awful and majestic force of law to ban it? It does more harm than good! It deprives thousands (?) of children of a two-parent family, which is (aren’t we all agreed?) better than a one-parent family. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/766 "2012-09-10T06:02:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **magellan01** claimed that if same-sex marriages are called marriages, kids who are merely experimenting with same-sex physicality will get confused and think they’re gay. Because… something about guardrails. Total quote fail sorry ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/767 "2012-09-10T06:04:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let them marry. But let’s not start calling their blue eyes brown. > > You need help. But not the kind that I can give you. But what in the world is unnatural about interracial marriage? One judge said: > [@](#): > > Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix. Not too far off from your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/768 "2012-09-10T06:17:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **magellan01** claimed that if same-sex marriages are called marriages, kids who are merely experimenting with same-sex physicality will get confused and think they’re gay. Because… something about guardrails. “They said we’d be _leaning_ on them all day!” Anyway, I note magellan cannot (or at least has not) offered up any other words that have needed dictionary-defense. As always, his is a general argument that applies to exactly one specific instance. One! ONE specific instance! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/769 "2012-09-10T06:57:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not following you here. Are you assuming I’m against adoption by gays, single or straight? No, I got briefly lost in the quagmire of this thread and had assumed that your “ideal” environment was tied to not wanting to allow SSM. It is funny that you would allow adoption and not marriage, though. Shouldn’t we call adoption by gays ‘child guardianship’ so as not to dilute the meaning of the word adoption? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/770 "2012-09-10T08:32:55Z")
Are we going to allow gays to dilute the meaning of the word “parenthood”, just like they want to dilute “marriage”? I propose we give gays all the rights and privileges of parenthood, but in the name of preserving the meaning of the word, they should call it “concierging.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/771 "2012-09-10T09:30:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “They said we’d be _leaning_ on them all day!” ISWYDT. > [@](#): > > One! ONE specific instance! “You shouldn’t have changed the definition of a word on me, Johnny. My cousin changed the definition of a word on me once. ONCE!” > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Are we going to allow gays to dilute the meaning of the word “parenthood”, just like they want to dilute “marriage”? I propose we give gays all the rights and privileges of parenthood, but in the name of preserving the meaning of the word, they should call it “concierging.” Also, they aren’t allowed to use the word “sex” because that refers to penile-vaginal penetration. Gay sex should be known as “squidging”. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/772 "2012-09-10T11:00:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **magellan01** claimed that if same-sex marriages are called marriages, kids who are merely experimenting with same-sex physicality will get confused and think they’re gay. Because… something about guardrails. … and, therefore, it is better for those young people to know _by definition and law_, that their same-sex relationships are not in any way equivalent to any opposite-sex relationships they may have during the experimentation phase. Because, a child mistakenly self-identifying as gay is _traumatic_, while a child being told that any same-sex attraction is inferior (wrong or somehow shameful) is _good for society_. Or something. Now, I have watched a lot of videos on the internet, and it seems that many, many young college-aged women have consensual lesbian experience while on Spring Break, and then go on to consensual heterosexual relationships; often in the same video! They don’t seem traumatized at all, but they do seem to be much louder than any woman I’ve been with. And more shaved. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/773 "2012-09-10T13:08:37Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Also, they aren’t allowed to use the word “sex” because that refers to penile-vaginal penetration. Gay sex should be known as “squidging”. What about oral sex? Bill Clinton really wants to know your answer. And heck, is there anything gays do that heteros don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/774 "2012-09-10T15:11:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > :rolleyes: Like there’s going to be any confusion. between marriage as we know it and the chassis of a car. Here’s an analogy for you to show the childishness of this argument. Let’s say tomorrow oceanographers discover a completely new small crustacean, how about we call it a clam, or a mussel? Or might that be confusing. On the other hand, we can enjoy scallops fra diavolo and admire a table cloth with a scalloped edge, with zero confusion. I see. You’re saying a term can mean more than one thing without causing any major chaos or confusion. So if marriage means state-recognized long-term opposite-sex _and_ same-sex relationships, there shouldn’t be a problem. Right? I don’t think you are following through on the implications of your own argument here. I’d also like to see you try answering my questions and explaining what exactly is going to happen if (when) “marriage” refers to these relationships regardless of the sexes of the people involved and exactly why it’s going to change anybody’s behavior or identification. If anything it sounds like it would make people less judgmental about sexuality, and I’m having a hard time seeing that as a bad thing. As I said earlier, your argument would make more sense if you were arguing in support of anti-sodomy laws. While those laws had not really been enforced anywhere in recent decades, criminalizing same-sex behavior might actually, you know, affect people’s behavior. “Don’t call it marriage!” doesn’t seem likely to affect anyone’s behavior, particularly that of people who aren’t really thinking in terms of sex or marriage. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/775 "2012-09-10T15:25:24Z")
“Don’t call it marriage!” = “Don’t call them normal!” Simple and obvious, really. Speaks for itself, too. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/776 "2012-09-10T15:59:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I see. You’re saying a term can mean more than one thing without causing any major chaos or confusion. So if marriage means state-recognized long-term opposite-sex _and_ same-sex relationships, there shouldn’t be a problem. Right? > > I don’t think you are following through on the implications of your own argument here. I’d also like to see you try answering my questions and explaining what exactly is going to happen if (when) “marriage” refers to these relationships regardless of the sexes of the people involved and exactly why it’s going to change anybody’s behavior or identification. If anything it sounds like it would make people less judgmental about sexuality, and I’m having a hard time seeing that as a bad thing. As I said earlier, your argument would make more sense if you were arguing in support of anti-sodomy laws. While those laws had not really been enforced anywhere in recent decades, criminalizing same-sex behavior might actually, you know, affect people’s behavior. “Don’t call it marriage!” doesn’t seem likely to affect anyone’s behavior, particularly that of people who aren’t really thinking in terms of sex or marriage. Well it is obvious what the problem would be, the ‘ideal’ scenario of a one man and one woman marriage would become rarer because…erm…well dammit I can’t see how allowing a small subset of the population to call themselves married would influence this ‘ideal’ scenario at all. **magellan01** is not only a bigot but also a coward. Some bigots are too dumb to realise they are bigots and from his posts here I think we can conclude he isn’t dumb. Some people are proud bigots who shout their bigotry from the roof tops, these people are mostly morons. Then we have our cowardly bigots who know what they espouse is bigotry but try all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince themselves, and consequently others, they are in fact not bigots. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/777 "2012-09-10T16:03:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let them marry. But let’s not start calling their blue eyes brown. Do you think we should have a different term for interracial marriage? > [@](#): > > But what in the world is unnatural about interracial marriage? Someday people will be saying “what in the world is unnatural about gay marriage?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/778 "2012-09-10T16:08:04Z")
> [@martu](#): > > **magellan01** is not only a bigot but also a coward. Some bigots are too dumb to realise they are bigots and from his posts here I think we can conclude he isn’t dumb. Some people are proud bigots who shout their bigotry from the roof tops, these people are mostly morons. Then we have our cowardly bigots who know what they espouse is bigotry but try all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince themselves, and consequently others, they are in fact not bigots. You’re not allowed to insult people this way in Great Debates. I’m giving you a warning for this one; don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/779 "2012-09-10T17:13:08Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And heck, is there anything gays do that heteros don’t? I dunno. Decorate? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/780 "2012-09-10T17:18:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I dunno. Decorate? Ooh, sounds kinky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=40)