# How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653 "2012-08-06T20:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/81 "2012-08-10T15:58:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Agree and disagree. You’re right that it’s not always helpful to engage in harsh judgment and condemnation. Sometimes it’s better to talk quietly and compassionately to a bigot, to create a context in which they can change their minds without losing face. > > On the other hand, you’re wrong to say that’s the same offense they’re guilty of. Someone who opposes SSM is guilty of denying equal rights to their neighbors based on prejudice or ignorance. That’s not remotely the same thing, either in act or in motive, as yelling at someone for being a jerk to their neighbors. When I say it’s the same I’m referring to the harsh judgement that says, “I’m righteous and my judgement of you is righteous” or the, IMO, unconscious position of moral superiority. Whether the thought is, “you’re a bigot and I am superior” or “You’re a sinner and I am superior” it’s the same essential human failing. Look at the fool who confronted some worker bee at the drive through and posted it on you tube. I’m sure he felt righteous in standing up for the cause but he was essentially just being a dick I’ve come to the conclusion that confrontation is an essential part of personal growth and societal growth. While we confront others with our righteous views , we should also be looking within for opportunities to refine our own views and methods. As we confront others, we confront ourselves. It’s human to be mistaken sometimes. It’s human to get angry and occasionally lash out. It’s good to remember that we likely have the same flaws we are pointing out in others, even if it’s on a separate issue. Can we passionately oppose someone without seeing them as a bad person. Can we strongly oppose and be prepared to forgive , knowing that we will need forgiveness at some point. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/82 "2012-08-10T16:14:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The only leeway I give to bigots is whether they had the ability to be exposed to non-bigoted thinking before an age where their beliefs were mostly set in stone. > > For example, my grandpa still occasionally thinks things about Mexicans that sneak out. He can only grasp that it bothers us when he does so, but not that there is another way of thinking–it’s been too long. But I have no doubt that, if he were born later, he’d be on our side–it’s just part of who he is. He gets a pass. > > The same goes for historical figures. But not people in this day and age; unless they are just in some backwater, they’ve had time to grow up with the idea that their beliefs are bigotry. Particularly when they keep claiming things that are in the Bible that aren’t there, I can’t give them a pass. (It may decry homosexuality, but there’s nothing about the proper family.) As a former Christian I keep thinking about the passages about the truth setting us free and seeking the truth. I agree, there is a lot of information available and while I understand the emotional reluctance to let go of portions of our belief system {perhaps for fear it will all collapse} I have a hard time being patient with people who insist on ignoring fats and rational arguments and cling to semantic games to maintain an unsupportable position. The label of bigot doesn’t feel good. I get that, but you can’t escape it simply by saying “I have a right to my opinion” Or there’s the concept of respecting people’s beliefs. I respect people’s right to hold whatever beliefs they will. Someone could believe them world is flat and the sun revolves around , but why would we respect that? If someone believes God wants them to feed the poor very few people will object and can respect their efforts even if we don’t intellectually agree with their motives. If someone believes God wants them to harm the innocent , should we respect that? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/83 "2012-08-10T16:24:17Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you’re bigoted because your dad told you nonsense around the dinner table or your priest told you nonsense from his pulpit, it doesn’t matter. You’re still bigoted. > > Denying gays marriage requires that you find them less than you. That they will somehow \*dirty \*the institution. “Different” does not equal “less than”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/84 "2012-08-10T16:30:29Z")
The Supreme Court has ruled otherwise. Care to tell us your version of why? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/85 "2012-08-10T17:27:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > “Different” does not equal “less than”. Separate but equal certainly proved that didn’t it? The whole idea that the institution of marriage needs to be protected from SS unions is emotion and religious based. The idea that marriage and by extension society will somehow be harmed or made less by calling SS unions marriage has no basis in fact whatsoever. Personally I think the idea that the details of some other couples marriage can somehow dimish mine is emotional paranoia. The whole things screams of “not as good as” or not as sacred" or not as meaningful" which are all insults just as fully as saying an interracial couple doesn’t have a real marriage or a divorced person can’t remarry. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/86 "2012-08-10T17:31:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > “Different” does not equal “less than”. In this case, it does. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/87 "2012-08-10T20:03:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > “Different” does not equal “less than”. True. But your personal objection to gay marriage is that it will, in the long run, be damaging to the health and stability of our society. That could only be possible if gay relationships were flawed in some manner that straight relationships are not. On top of that, there’s your recent assertions that homosexual relationships are, by their nature, less fulfilling than heterosexual relationships - again, a clear statement that homosexual relationships are, in your view, “less than” hetero relationships. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/88 "2012-08-10T21:23:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > True. But your personal objection to gay marriage is that it will, in the long run, be damaging to the health and stability of our society. That could only be possible if gay relationships were flawed in some manner that straight relationships are not. On top of that, there’s your recent assertions that homosexual relationships are, by their nature, less fulfilling than heterosexual relationships - again, a clear statement that homosexual relationships are, in your view, “less than” hetero relationships. “Flawed” is a loaded word. A cow is “flawed” as a member of the family horses. It does not mean that cows are “flawed” beings generally. That’s pure logic. Factually correct. So, I repeat: “Different” does not equal “less than”. Before we move on, can we agree on that much? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/89 "2012-08-10T21:54:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > “Flawed” is a loaded word. A cow is “flawed” as a member of the family horses. It does not mean that cows are “flawed” beings generally. That’s pure logic. Factually correct. So, I repeat: “Different” does not equal “less than”. > > Before we move on, can we agree on that much? Bad example. We are Homo Sapians vs. Pan Sapians only because separate is by it’s nature unequal. We want to be special and not feel icky about the reality that we are. Romantic marriage is as “non-traditional” as gay marriage, except for bigotry there is no justification to “protect” it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/90 "2012-08-10T22:24:42Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Bad example. We are Homo Sapians vs. Pan Sapians only because separate is by it’s nature unequal. > > We want to be special and not feel icky about the reality that we are. > > Romantic marriage is as “non-traditional” as gay marriage, except for bigotry there is no justification to “protect” it. :rolleyes: You say bad example, then do nothing to show why it’s a bad example. Instead you introduce your emotionalism into the equation. That’s bad argumentation on your part. Now you may not like it, but that’s just too bad: the universal laws of logic apply to arguments _universally._ Imagine that! My statement stands. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/91 "2012-08-10T22:36:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > :rolleyes: You say bad example, then do nothing to show why it’s a bad example. Instead you introduce your emotionalism into the equation. That’s bad argumentation on your part. Now you may not like it, but that’s just too bad: the universal laws of logic apply to arguments _universally._ Imagine that! > > My statement stands. You just stated an arbitrary grouping of semi related things, both of which are not codified in the laws of the land. It is not emotionalism “anything but marriage” is bigotry no matter how “mild” Can you provide any reasoning outside of your religious beliefs and/or discomfort with the private personal lives of others to not call it marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/92 "2012-08-10T22:39:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > “Flawed” is a loaded word. A cow is “flawed” as a member of the family horses. It does not mean that cows are “flawed” beings generally. That’s pure logic. Factually correct. So, I repeat: “Different” does not equal “less than”. > > Before we move on, can we agree on that much? I don’t think we can, because I don’t understand what you just said. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/93 "2012-08-10T22:42:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > “Flawed” is a loaded word. A cow is “flawed” as a member of the family horses. Please tell me you’re not saying that homosexuals are flawed as members of the family human beings. I know that can’t be what you’re saying. But it sounds like that’s what you’re saying. Would you please try again so I don’t have to hate you? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/94 "2012-08-10T22:45:01Z")
Sounds more like he’s saying homosexuals are \*different \*from human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/95 "2012-08-10T22:59:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Sounds more like he’s saying homosexuals are \*different \*from human beings. So we have _homo sapiens_ and _homo sexuals_? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/96 "2012-08-10T23:07:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Sounds more like he’s saying homosexuals are \*different \*from human beings. No, different from heterosexuals. Not lesser, different. Which goes back directly to my original statement. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/97 "2012-08-10T23:18:35Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Please tell me you’re not saying that homosexuals are flawed as members of the family human beings. I know that can’t be what you’re saying. But it sounds like that’s what you’re saying. Would you please try again so I don’t have to hate you? First , that’s not what I was saying. Second, don’t get hung up in the word flawed. 1) I didn’t bring it up. And 2) it is a loaded word. It can go to judgement (usually) or simply to criteria (seldom). Like in my horse example. There is nothing inherently better or worse about horses or cows. While they are both large four-legged animals, there are differences. One is not lesser than the other. If you tried to judge a cow by those things that define horseness, then the cow comes up short. And vice versa. I was sating to **Miller** , that that would be the only way I see his word, “flawed” even being applicable. Again, how we got here. Elvis said: > [@](#): > > Denying gays marriage requires that you find them less than you. And I simply made the factual point that “different” does not equal “lesser than” ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/98 "2012-08-10T23:31:45Z")
And yet even a child has no problems with saying “Mommy, those two horses are married!” and ten minutes later saying “Mommy, those two cows are married!” Insisting that there are such things as horse-marriage and cow-unions is a conscious, arbitrary, and needless act. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/99 "2012-08-10T23:37:48Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > And yet even a child has no problems with saying “Mommy, those two horses are married!” and ten minutes later saying “Mommy, those two cows are married!” > > Insisting that there are such things as horse-marriage and cow-unions is a conscious, arbitrary, and needless act. What’s more interesting is that anyone questioned the validity of the statement I made. There’s a lot of “but this”, and “but that”, but no demonstration of me being incorrect. Maybe we all agree. Excellent! Forgot this: a child also has no problem saying, “There’s a monster under my bed”. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/100 "2012-08-10T23:40:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, different from heterosexuals. Not lesser, different. Which goes back directly to my original statement. Red heads are different than blondes . . . but have exactly the same rights. Short people are different than tall people . . . but have exactly the same rights. Asians are different than black people . . . but have exactly the same rights. Gay people are different than straight people . . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=6)