# How to decide which instances of opposition to gay marriage are hateful and bigoted. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653 "2012-08-06T20:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/101 "2012-08-10T23:46:17Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Red heads are different than blondes . . . but have exactly the same rights. > Short people are different than tall people . . . but have exactly the same rights. > Asians are different than black people . . . but have exactly the same rights. > Gay people are different than straight people . . . . …but have exactly the same rights. Gay _couples_ may not, but gay _people_ have the same rights guaranteed in the Constitution. That said, you’re expanding on the original statement. Do you agree that my original statement is correct or not? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/102 "2012-08-10T23:47:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And I simply made the factual point that “different” does not equal “lesser than” You know well that that is not the typical view, nor the legally-established one. I’ll ask again: What, in your own view, is the reasoning behind the Brown ruling declaring “separate but equal” to be a fiction? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/103 "2012-08-10T23:56:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You know well that that is not the typical view, nor the legally-established one. > > I’ll ask again: What, in your own view, is the reasoning behind the Brown ruling declaring “separate but equal” to be a fiction? We’ve been through this. I might be inclined to explain AGAIN how that does not apply to my view on civil unions, but why don’t you just do a search. You see, I’m not inclined to go through the same rigamarole on that when you and yours can’t even grant the simple, factual truth that “different” does not equal “less than”. Once again, here’s the original statement from Lobohan I was correcting: > [@](#): > > Denying gays marriage requires that you find them less than you. If I want women and men to use different rest room, do I think one is “less then” the other? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/104 "2012-08-11T00:09:21Z")
IOW you know as well as anyone else there’s no difference, and your frustration at your resulting inability to rationalize the conclusion you wish to hold is a source of anger to you. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/105 "2012-08-11T00:11:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If I want women and men to use different rest room, do I think one is “less then” the other? Yes or no? You’re never going to find agreement or even get anyone to answer your ‘simple’ questions, because there’s a fundamental disconnect: You think the difference between a heterosexual man or woman and a homosexual man or woman, or the difference between a heterosexual marriage and a homosexual marriage, is analogous to the difference between a man and a woman or a cow and a horse. The people you argue against simply don’t agree. At most, the difference between a heterosexual man and a homosexual man is the same as the difference between a black man and a white man, or between [this Holstein cow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cow_female_black_white.jpg) and [this Holstein cow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holstein_heifer.jpg). You want so badly for it to be a clear apple and orange situation, when we see it as an apple and apple situation. Nobody wants to answer your simple questions because they have two brain cells they can rub together and realize that you’re going to go, “You agree that a man is different from but not less than a woman, therefore you must agree with me that a civil union is different from but not less than a marriage.” Nobody’s willing to give you that inch because you’ll simply take a mile. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/106 "2012-08-11T00:13:31Z")
> [@D-bear](#): > > And here is where some of the money raised from the sale of those oh so tasty Chick-fil-A sandwiches goes. > > [Bryan Jonathan Fischer the Director of Issues Analysis for the American Family Association, hosts the talk radio program Focal Point on American Family Radio](http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2012/08/09/bryan-fischer-advocates-underground-railroad-abduct-children-same-sex) in which he advocates kidnapping children from same sex parents. > > Nope. Not bigoted or hateful at all. Wow, what an awful plan. Not that I doubt you, but cite please? I’d love to know what individual (or organization) gave how much to what organization. If, for example, Dan Cathy gave $100 to the AFA, then he’s a bigotted douchenozzle as we already know. If, on the other hand, Chick-fil-A’s “charity arm” gave $2 million to the Focal Point radio program, then that’s a much better justification to boycott the restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/107 "2012-08-11T00:15:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If I want women and men to use different rest room, do I think one is “less then” the other? Yes or no? If one room is appointed in gold and marble, has hot and cold running water and is cleaned and restocked every 20 minutes, and the other has splintered boards for countertops, no running water and hasn’t seen a janitor in weeks and the soap dispenser is hanging empty off the wall…than yes, I’d think you’d have to consider one gender “less than” the other to be forced to content themselves with the second bathroom. “Marriage” isn’t the same as “civil unions”. The rights are not identical, and the social acceptance isn’t the same, and civil unions don’t have any standing at all across state lines. You’re not talking about two identical but separate restrooms, you’re talking about a bathroom at the Taj Mahal and an outhouse. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/108 "2012-08-11T00:23:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If I want women and men to use different rest room, do I think one is “less then” the other? Yes or no? Depends. Are you willing to let the woman decide which one she uses, and you’ll use the other one? If you say, “Woman, they’re EXACTLY THE SAME, but I insist that this one is reserved for me and you may never enter it, and you must use that one,” you might forgive her for being suspicious that you’re telling the truth. By analogy, if marriage and civil union are exactly the same, then you should be willing to let gay people choose which one they want, and you’ll take the other. If you’re not willing to do that, then you might forgive them for being suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/109 "2012-08-11T00:43:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > “Flawed” is a loaded word. A cow is “flawed” as a member of the family horses. It does not mean that cows are “flawed” beings generally. That’s pure logic. Factually correct. So, I repeat: “Different” does not equal “less than”. > > Before we move on, can we agree on that much? Sounds like you’re trying hard to be semantically or technically correct without applying your “logic” to the actual subject at hand. You’re comparing two different species which makes it a false comparison for this discussion. If we’re looking just at cows we might say one cow is lesser or greater than depending on the purpose we are considering. If the purpose is to acquire milk then the cow that gives more milk is greater. If the purpose is beef then the cow supplies more or better quality is greater. If you’re talking about them just being cows brown is different than black and white but neither greater or lessor. How would you then decide which cows get access to what feed and water? If you clearly treated one color better than the other just based on your personal feelings and preference then your motives would be in question We’re discussing the same species having the same rights concerning a social and legal institution. So, unless you can explain how different is not less than in the context of this subject your semantic wrangling is just a waste of time. The problem for you is you can’t. You have no factual or reasonable basis for your assertions ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/110 "2012-08-11T00:46:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If I want women and men to use different rest room, do I think one is “less then” the other? Yes or no? So if people wanted black people to use different restrooms and fountains and diners , it’s fine then? It never did mean anyone thought black people were less than? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/111 "2012-08-11T00:50:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …but have exactly the same rights. > > Gay _couples_ may not, but gay _people_ have the same rights guaranteed in the Constitution. > > That said, you’re expanding on the original statement. Do you agree that my original statement is correct or not? Incorrect. If a gay individual does not have the right to marry the consenting adult they love and who wants to marry them then that individual does not have the same rights as others. ---
**Author:** ![D-bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@D-bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D-bear)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/112 "2012-08-11T01:55:26Z")
NM. Still researching. ---
**Author:** ![D-bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@D-bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D-bear)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/113 "2012-08-11T02:05:14Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Wow, what an awful plan. > > Not that I doubt you, but cite please? I’d love to know what individual (or organization) gave how much to what organization. If, for example, Dan Cathy gave $100 to the AFA, then he’s a bigotted douchenozzle as we already know. If, on the other hand, Chick-fil-A’s “charity arm” gave $2 million to the Focal Point radio program, then that’s a much better justification to boycott the restaurant. [AFA is linked to American Family Radio.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Family_Radio) [Florida Family Council is an affiliate of the American Family Association, which has been designated as an anti-gay hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.](http://equalitymatters.org/blog/201103220005#4) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/114 "2012-08-11T02:10:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We’ve been through this. I might be inclined to explain AGAIN how that does not apply to my view on civil unions, but why don’t you just do a search. You see, I’m not inclined to go through the same rigamarole on that when you and yours can’t even grant the simple, factual truth that “different” does not equal “less than”. In the broadest possible semantic sense, you are correct: Two is less than four, seven is greater than four, and roast beef is incommensurate with four. All three are different; only one is less than. However, in the context that we have been debating, of two things declared to be “separate but equal,” where there is a history of emotional prejudice against a group (black or gay people), with a centuries-old body of statute and case law built up around one of the two concepts (marriage), establishing a second category (civil union) will manifestly lead to inequities, just as the ‘separate but equal’ schools for black people got the short end of the stick 99.9% of the time. And your proposition that there be a single set of laws applying to both institutions equally will not work, for reasons history amply documents. Here, for an inadequate but illustrative comparison, is Article XIV, Section 1, of the New York State Constitution, the “Forever Wild” guarantee. The portion in green is original; that in red, added by amendments. > [@NYS Constitution](#): > > NEW YORK STATE CONSTITUTION > ARTICLE XIV > Conservation > Section 1. The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private, nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed. Nothing herein contained shall prevent the state from constructing, completing and maintaining any highway heretofore specifically authorized by constitutional amendment, nor from constructing and maintaining to federal standards federal aid interstate highway route five hundred two from a point in the vicinity of the city of Glens Falls, thence northerly to the vicinity of the villages of Lake George and Warrensburg, the hamlets of South Horicon and Pottersville and thence northerly in a generally straight line on the west side of Schroon Lake to the vicinity of the hamlet of Schroon, then continuing northerly to the vicinity of Schroon Falls, Schroon River and North Hudson, and to the east of Makomis Mountain, east of the hamlet of New Russia, east of the village of Elizabethtown and continuing northerly in the vicinity of the hamlet of Towers Forge, and east of Poke-O-Moonshine Mountain and continuing northerly to the vicinity of the village of Keeseville and the city of Plattsburgh, all of the aforesaid taking not to exceed a total of three hundred acres of state forest preserve land, nor from constructing and maintaining not more than twenty-five miles of ski trails thirty to two hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided that no more than five miles of such trails shall be in excess of one hundred twenty feet wide, on the north, east and northwest slopes of Whiteface Mountain in Essex county, nor from constructing and maintaining not more than twenty-five miles of ski trails thirty to two hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided that no more than two miles of such trails shall be in excess of one hundred twenty feet wide, on the slopes of Belleayre Mountain in Ulster and Delaware counties and not more than forty miles of ski trails thirty to two hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided that no more than eight miles of such trails shall be in excess of one hundred twenty feet wide, on the slopes of Gore and Pete Gay mountains in Warren county, nor from relocating, reconstructing and maintaining a total of not more than fifty miles of existing state highways for the purpose of eliminating the hazards of dangerous curves and grades, provided a total of no more than four hundred acres of forest preserve land shall be used for such purpose and that no single relocated portion of any highway shall exceed one mile in length. Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions, the state may convey to the village of Saranac Lake ten acres of forest preserve land adjacent to the boundaries of such village for public use in providing for refuse disposal and in exchange therefore the village of Saranac Lake shall convey to the state thirty acres of certain true forest land owned by such village on Roaring Brook in the northern half of Lot 113, Township 11, Richards Survey. Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions, the state may convey to the town of Arietta twenty-eight acres of forest preserve land within such town for public use in providing for the extension of the runway and landing strip of the Piseco airport and in exchange therefor the town of Arietta shall convey to the state thirty acres of certain land owned by such town in the town of Arietta. Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions and subject to legislative approval of the tracts to be exchanged prior to the actual transfer of title, the state, in order to consolidate its land holdings for better management, may convey to International Paper Company approximately eight thousand five hundred acres of forest preserve land located in townships two and three of Totten and Crossfield`s Purchase and township nine of the Moose River Tract, Hamilton county, and in exchange therefore International Paper Company shall convey to the state for incorporation into the forest preserve approximately the same number of acres of land located within such townships and such County on condition that the legislature shall determine that the lands to be received by the state are at least equal in value to the lands to be conveyed by the state. Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions and subject to legislative approval of the tracts to be exchanged prior to the actual transfer of title and the conditions herein set forth, the state, in order to facilitate the preservation of historic buildings listed on the national register of historic places by rejoining an historic grouping of buildings under unitary ownership and stewardship, may convey to Sagamore Institute Inc., a not-for-profit educational organization, approximately ten acres of land and buildings thereon adjoining the real property of the Sagamore Institute, Inc. and located on Sagamore Road, near Racquette Lake Village, in the Town of Long Lake, county of Hamilton, and in exchange therefor; Sagamore Institute, Inc. shall convey to the state for incorporation into the forest preserve approximately two hundred acres of wild forest land located within the Adirondack Park on condition that the legislature shall determine that the lands to be received by the state are at least equal in value to the lands and buildings to be conveyed by the state and that the natural and historic character of the lands and buildings conveyed by the state will be secured by appropriate covenants and restrictions and that the lands and buildings conveyed by the state will reasonably be available for public visits according to agreement between Sagamore Institute, Inc. and the state. Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions the state may convey to the town of Arietta fifty acres of forest preserve land within such town for public use in providing for the extension of the runway and landing strip of the Piseco airport and providing for the maintenance of a clear zone around such runway, and in exchange therefor, the town of Arietta shall convey to the state fifty-three acres of true forest land located in lot 2 township 2 Totten and Crossfield`s Purchase in the town of Lake Pleasant. Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions and subject to legislative approval prior to actual transfer of title, the state may convey to the town of Keene, Essex county, for public use as a cemetery owned by such town, approximately twelve acres of forest preserve land within such town and, in exchange therefor, the town of Keene shall convey to the state for incorporation into the forest preserve approximately one hundred forty-four acres of land, together with an easement over land owned by such town including the riverbed adjacent to the land to be conveyed to the state that will restrict further development of such land, on condition that the legislature shall determine that the property to be received by the state is at least equal in value to the land to be conveyed by the state. While any one of those exceptions can be justified by an investigation into the background thereof, I trust that the idea that a law that started out as “these things are to be kept this and so, with no exceptions” can accrue dozens of exceptions over time. Which is the point why a “civil union giving the same rights as marriage” won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/115 "2012-08-11T02:18:19Z")
The differences between separate bathrooms for the genders and other versions of “separate but equal”, is that separate bathrooms is what most members of both genders in our society _want_, and _the motive isn’t malignant_. It isn’t being imposed on an unwilling populace, and it isn’t intended to hurt or humilate anyone. On the other hand, “civil unions” for same sex couples aren’t ever going to be the equal of marriage, because being inferior is the _point_. Just as in racial separate but equal “colored” facilities were always inferior, because _that_ was part of the point. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/116 "2012-08-11T02:27:05Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Sounds like you’re trying hard to be semantically or technically correct without applying your “logic” to the actual subject at hand. No. I’m trying to prevent a statement from **Lobohan** , which is factually incorrect, from passing as true, and then that being treated as a “given”. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > You’re comparing two different species which makes it a false comparison for this discussion. I was using them as a simple example of sets and subsets. I could have used ice cream or cars. No difference from a logic perspective. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > If we’re looking just at cows we might say one cow is lesser or greater than depending on the purpose we are considering. If the purpose is to acquire milk then the cow that gives more milk is greater. If the purpose is beef then the cow supplies more or better quality is greater. Yes. And if the purpose is to ride it really fast to a town 20 miles away, neither of them are of much value. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > If you’re talking about them just being cows brown is different than black and white but neither greater or lessor. How would you then decide which cows get access to what feed and water? If you clearly treated one color better than the other just based on your personal feelings and preference then your motives would be in question > We’re discussing the same species having the same rights concerning a social and legal institution. So, unless you can explain how different is not less than in the context of this subject your semantic wrangling is just a waste of time. > The problem for you is you can’t. You have no factual or reasonable basis for your assertions Untrue. But fodder for another thread. If desperately interested, you can do a Search. Also, you’re reading way to much into my example. Perhaps I should have used station wagons and sports cars. The analogy is getting tortured. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/117 "2012-08-11T02:29:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > IOW you know as well as anyone else there’s no difference, and your frustration at your resulting inability to rationalize the conclusion you wish to hold is a source of anger to you. > > Right? Wrong. If I have any frustration it is how how some of those on your side feel that just because they feel strongly about something they can suspend the rules of logic. But that really causes them more problems than me. So, ::shrug:: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/118 "2012-08-11T02:40:23Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > You’re never going to find agreement or even get anyone to answer your ‘simple’ questions, because there’s a fundamental disconnect: You think the difference between a heterosexual man or woman and a homosexual man or woman, or the difference between a heterosexual marriage and a homosexual marriage, is analogous to the difference between a man and a woman or a cow and a horse. > > The people you argue against simply don’t agree. At most, the difference between a heterosexual man and a homosexual man is the same as the difference between a black man and a white man, or between [this Holstein cow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cow_female_black_white.jpg) and [this Holstein cow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holstein_heifer.jpg). You want so badly for it to be a clear apple and orange situation, when we see it as an apple and apple situation. Yep. We disagree. I really don’t see it that way. > [@Bosstone](#): > > Nobody wants to answer your simple questions because they have two brain cells they can rub together and realize that you’re going to go, “You agree that a man is different from but not less than a woman, therefore you must agree with me that a civil union is different from but not less than a marriage.” Nobody’s willing to give you that inch because you’ll simply take a mile. Well, that’s really a problem with their inability to debate dispassionately. Just because one may disagree with my final position doesn’t require them to disagree with every supporting point. In fact, that’s asinine. But it does point to which side is using their emotions more than their brains. I mean, I think Obama is a poor President and really needs to be replaced. That doesn’t mean I have to disagree with the proposition that he’s a smart guy. In fact, I think he’s very smart. Very smart and very misguided, but again, fodder for a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/119 "2012-08-11T02:46:51Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > “Marriage” isn’t the same as “civil unions”. It is not my position that they are and have never claimed they were. It is my position that they can be legally identical. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653/120 "2012-08-11T02:56:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Depends. Are you willing to let the woman decide which one she uses, and you’ll use the other one? > > If you say, “Woman, they’re EXACTLY THE SAME, but I insist that this one is reserved for me and you may never enter it, and you must use that one,” you might forgive her for being suspicious that you’re telling the truth. Just because she’s suspicious doesn’t mean that are not identical. But that’s not a concern with what I’m talking about, because they’re is nothing hidden. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > By analogy, if marriage and civil union are exactly the same, then you should be willing to let gay people choose which one they want, and you’ll take the other. If you’re not willing to do that, then you might forgive them for being suspicious. Again, their being suspicious offers no commentary of the reality of the equality. Aside from that, your analogy assumes 1) a baseline with no history attached, and 2) that I see no value in the maintaining the traditional meaning of the word. Those assumptions, obviously, are incorrect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-decide-which-instances-of-opposition-to-gay-marriage-are-hateful-and-bigoted/630653.md?page=7)