# How to defeat a populist leader, with lessons from history **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327 "2017-01-27T17:51:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/21 "2017-01-28T18:48:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The popular vote is not worth anything, at least not at the national level. That’s true for the Presidency, the House, and the Senate. It’s a meaningless number, except to the degree that it (imperfectly sometimes) reflects the number of the 435 individual House districts that were won or lost. Constitutionally meaningless, yes. But not morally meaningless. And the Senate is not really part of it, the popular vote is valid there for senators at least. And it is Trump the one that gets sick when he is reminded of it every single day. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/22 "2017-01-28T19:09:48Z")
Trump couldn’t care less. He _intended_ to win via the Electoral College rather than the popular vote and that’s exactly what he did. He might pay lip service to challenging the popular vote numbers as a tactic to keep his critics from gaining the upper hand, but on a personal level he’s the one who took the golden ring. He’s the one who’s in the White House, signing executive orders and twisting the arms of CEOs and flying around in Airforce One, and to him that’s what counts. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/23 "2017-01-28T19:12:19Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Trump couldn’t care less. Someone should remind him of that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/24 "2017-01-28T19:16:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Constitutionally meaningless, yes. But not morally meaningless. And the Senate is not really part of it, the popular vote is valid there for senators at least. In what way is it morally meaningful? And for the Senate, I think the “meaningless” part is adding all the votes for Senators together. Generally, it is not the the goal of any party to maximize those numbers. (HRC, supposedly, tried to maximize the popular vote, but few presidential candidates do.) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/25 "2017-01-28T19:18:37Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > [How to Culture Jam a Populist in 4 Easy Steps](https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2017/01/20/culturejam/) by Andrés Miguel Rondón I like it. Even if it didn’t work I’d still want the Left to take this advice, because the advice is “stop being the villain.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/26 "2017-01-28T19:43:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In what way is it morally meaningful? Because Trump and followers are right now lying about and minimizing the worth of millions that did not vote for him. > **[Rick Joyner Says That Trump 'Overwhelmingly' Won The Popular Vote If We Just...](https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/rick-joyner-says-that-trump-overwhelmingly-won-the-popular-vote-if-we-just-ignore-california-and-new-york-city/)** > > On the most recent episode of his "Prophetic Perspective on Current Events " program, Rick Joyner dismissed the fact that Hillary Clinton "seemingly won We should not forget that one big lie does involve an accusation from the big man himself that the popular vote was won by the Democrat thanks to fraud. It is more than just a moral issue, Trump and buddies do want to make the wedge against immigrants to become larger, regardless of the pain that it will cause. I also do think that going forward the attitude of summarily dismissing the opinion (or votes) of the majority makes a mockery of what many conservatives have told us about respecting the consent of the governed; you see, a lot of things like [this](http://townhall.com/columnists/congressmankeithrothfus/2016/06/20/restoring-the-consent-of-the-governed-through-regulatory-accountability-n2181248) have been put forward to make the point that what people has suffered in some states should be the most important thing to look at, and disregard what many more do see as their no less important problems in big cities. IMHO all the problems should be taken a look at, but I do think that now that the other team is in control (and the current edition is indeed worse that previous ones) the continuous refusal to acknowledge that most did not approve of the solutions that they are proposing will only lead to huge overreaches and bad solutions that will run into more opposition than usual. Not much of that would take place if Trump had also won the popular vote. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/27 "2017-01-28T20:06:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Meh, as I pointed before the election was very close in the battleground states, the democrats only need to convince about 2% more that they were misled and they should demand their congress critters to be the check and the balance of Trump. > > And the most recent polls show that that will not be too hard. > > [http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx](http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx) By now, I would hope we’ve learned our lessons about polls and polling. I am not at all convinced that the Trump and the GOP can be so easily dislodged. Rondon’s articles (I think he’s written more than one lately) are a pretty fair assessment of where things stand right now. The democrats need minority outreach but they really, really need to be able to have another wing in the party that feels comfortable walking into bars with pool tables and the fanciest beer they serve is Budweiser on draft. The left does talk down to people - I do it myself occasionally. It’s tempting. But he’s right: it’s not very successful in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/28 "2017-01-28T20:16:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Because Trump and followers are right now lying about and minimizing the worth of millions that did not vote for him. . Wow, you didn’t just move the goalpost, you changed the game from football to baseball! Of course it’s morally bad to lie. That has nothing to with it being morally meaningful to win the popular vote. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/29 "2017-01-28T20:18:42Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > By now, I would hope we’ve learned our lessons about polls and polling. I am not at all convinced that the Trump and the GOP can be so easily dislodged. I’m already over the reasons why the Democrats lost, and yes, even if we do know how harebrained the scandals were the reality is that it was easy for the Republicans to drive the Democratic turnout down with Clinton as the candidate. Not gonna happen again and right now Trump is demonstrating to the group that did vote for him but had voted before for the Democrats that Trump **was not** lying about what he was going to do about trade wars and seeding further divisions among Americans. You see, many on that group did rationalize their votes by believing that Trump was not going to do much of that. Unfortunately they forgot to take a look at what the current congress is made of. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/30 "2017-01-28T20:20:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Constitutionally meaningless, yes. But not morally meaningless. And the Senate is not really part of it, the popular vote is valid there for senators at least. In what way is a national popular vote valid? Why would republicans care about Hillary Clinton running up the score in voting districts that probably aren’t going to vote republican anytime in the near future? Democratic-leaning voters really need to have a firm reality check here. We’re the ones who lost traditional strongholds here. We’ve been losing states that were once reliably democratic or at minimum reliably moderate: Ohio, Pennsylvania, Iowa, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Florida, Montana, and Missouri among others. The Republican party has completely and utterly dominated politics at the state level. They’ve also increased their majorities in congress. The democrats have focused on the big race while getting worked in other races. Even if Hillary had won, she would have faced a powerful tandem of republicans in congress and governors. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And it is Trump the one that gets sick when he is reminded of it every single day. Perhaps he does, but it’s also a clever ploy. Trump’s twitter tirades put the attention squarely on him and diverts attention away from whatever executive orders he’s signing. And Rondon’s right: it has the effect of polarization. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/31 "2017-01-28T20:21:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow, you didn’t just move the goalpost, you changed the game from football to baseball! Of course it’s morally bad to lie. That has nothing to with it being morally meaningful to win the popular vote. Again, someone should tell Trump that it should not be like that, but Trump is making it so. His uneasiness with what happened with the popular vote is indeed the reason for that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/32 "2017-01-28T20:29:11Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > In what way is a national popular vote valid? Why would republicans care about Hillary Clinton running up the score in voting districts that probably aren’t going to vote republican anytime in the near future? You did miss post #26 > [@asahi](#): > > Democratic-leaning voters really need to have a firm reality check here. We’re the ones who lost traditional strongholds here. By very narrow margins, with a weakened candidate. > [@asahi](#): > > Perhaps he does, but it’s also a clever ploy. Trump’s twitter tirades put the attention squarely on him and diverts attention away from whatever executive orders he’s signing. And Rondon’s right: it has the effect of polarization. Gee, should that be the Democrat’s fault? And the executive orders already added the worst of the reasonings to oppose Muslim refugees into the mix. As pointed before, the populism Trump is pushing is the one coming form the worst angels of our nature. It is important IMHO to never forget that a plurality, and looking at recent polls, that most of the people are not like that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/33 "2017-01-28T20:33:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Again, someone should tell Trump that it should not be like that, but Trump is making it so. His uneasiness with what happened with the popular vote is indeed the reason for that. I think we are at the end of the Yellow Brick Road at this point. I’ll not disturb the curtain any longer. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/34 "2017-01-28T20:35:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I’m already over the reasons why the Democrats lost, and yes, even if we do know how harebrained the scandals were the reality is that it was easy for the Republicans to drive the Democratic turnout down with Clinton as the candidate. Not gonna happen again and right now Trump is demonstrating to the group that did vote for him but had voted before for the Democrats that Trump **was not** lying about what he was going to do about trade wars and seeding further divisions among Americans. > > You see, many on that group did rationalize their votes by believing that Trump was not going to do much of that. Unfortunately they forgot to take a look at what the current congress is made of. I doubt it mattered that much. I think most people who voted for Trump did so with eyes wide open, and progressives (I consider myself one) don’t really do themselves any favors by living in this separate reality. I think progressives are making the same mistake they accuse conservatives of making, which is living in a bubble. We need to get out of it. Doesn’t mean we have to agree with them on anything, but at least sit down next to them at a bar and listen and talk. And agree to disagree if need be. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/35 "2017-01-28T20:37:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think we are at the end of the Yellow Brick Road at this point. I’ll not disturb the curtain any longer. And I think it should be pulled. I’m just saying that it is by taking the popular vote into account that we have the moral duty to demand better and prevent a slide towards the normalization of a pseudo populist leader in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/36 "2017-01-28T20:38:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think we are at the end of the Yellow Brick Road at this point. I’ll not disturb the curtain any longer. The discussions that progressives continue to have since the election are no different than the ones before it in which a number of people assumed Clinton would win, and they could prove it by referring us to Sam Wang’s chart-filled blog. We know how that turned out. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/37 "2017-01-28T20:43:58Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I doubt it mattered that much. I think most people who voted for Trump did so with eyes wide open, and progressives (I consider myself one) don’t really do themselves any favors by living in this separate reality. I do not think that demanding justice for minorities, refugees and yes, justice and fair deals to the significant number of the poor and middle class that voted for Trump should be considered a separate reality. > [@asahi](#): > > I think progressives are making the same mistake they accuse conservatives of making, which is living in a bubble. We need to get out of it. Doesn’t mean we have to agree with them on anything, but at least sit down next to them at a bar and listen and talk. And agree to disagree if need be. I don’t think anything that I said does prohibit efforts at that. Only that there is no need to change a lot to help and understand what the people at the bar think. But at the same time I do think that a lot of the people at the bar will ignore that a lot of what Trump did promised that it would happen in their neck of the woods will become a reality. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/38 "2017-01-28T20:51:27Z")
I mean: The people at the pub will **not** ignore that what trump promised to many in the rust belt (regarding coal jobs specially) will not happen. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/39 "2017-01-28T20:58:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > …Trump is demonstrating to the group that did vote for him but had voted before for the Democrats that Trump **was not** lying about what he was going to do about trade wars… I think that what most people who voted for Trump haven’t expected him to do was round up all the illegal immigrants en masse and ship them out of the country, or start killing the families of terrorists. You know, things like that. I think as far as efforts to keep jobs in or bring them to America and to thoroughly vet Muslim immigrants, most of Trump’s voters by far expected he would do that. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > and seeding further divisions among Americans. Political correctness and other tactics/practices of the left have sewn and are sewing far more divisiveness in this country than anything Trump has done. By. far. All over the country people are being called names and attacked over the most trivial and wrong-headed nonsense. Calling a woman beautiful (as did Brent Musberger and Steve Martin), being photographed playfully jumping on a black friend’s back (as did Ellen Degeneres with Usain Bolt), or ‘culturally appropriating’ hairstyles and clothing deemed belonging to some other race, are all examples of how people on the left are just looking for ways to attack people for some manufactured slight. This country, under liberal influence, has transitioned from being a melting pot into a seething mass of micro-populations all at each other’s throats for an apparently endless number of so-called offenses, the number of which grows exponentially every day. This country as a whole has never been more in the grip of liberal social activism, and it’s never been more divided and combative over so many things as it is now. The idea that Trump is the one who’s dividing us is laughable. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327/40 "2017-01-28T21:15:19Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I think that what most people who voted for Trump haven’t expected him to do was round up all the illegal immigrants en masse and ship them out of the country, or start killing the families of terrorists. You know, things like that. I think as far as efforts to keep jobs in or bring them to America and to thoroughly vet Muslim immigrants, most of Trump’s voters by far expected he would do that. The point was about the good number of people that were misled into voting for Trump or not voting at all. And this is grating that a good number did so because of the specific Democratic candidate. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Political correctness and other tactics/practices of the left have sewn and are sewing far more divisiveness in this country than anything Trump has done. By. far. All over the country people are being called names and attacked over the most trivial and wrong-headed nonsense. Calling a woman beautiful (as did Brent Musberger and Steve Martin), being photographed playfully jumping on a black friend’s back (as did Ellen Degeneres with Usain Bolt), or ‘culturally appropriating’ hairstyles and clothing deemed belonging to some other race, are all examples of how people on the left are just looking for ways to attack people for some manufactured slight. > > This country, under liberal influence, has transitioned from being a melting pot into a seething mass of micro-populations all at each other’s throats for an apparently endless number of so-called offenses, the number of which grows exponentially every day. This country as a whole has never been more in the grip of liberal social activism, and it’s never been more divided and combative over so many things as it is now. The idea that Trump is the one who’s dividing us is laughable. Sure… [sarcasm] > **[Following President Trump’s executive order green card, visa holders already...](https://www.nydailynews.com/2017/01/28/following-president-trumps-executive-order-green-card-visa-holders-already-blocked-by-airports/)** > > Within hours of President Trump’s executive order limiting immigration from Muslim countries, green card and visa holders were already being blocked from getting on flights to the U.S. The Ar… > [@](#): > > Within hours of President Trump’s executive order limiting immigration from Muslim countries, green card and visa holders were already being blocked from getting on flights to the U.S. > > The Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee said people who had already landed were being sequestered at airports and told they have to return to their point of origin. > > The Department of Homeland Security issued a directive at 4:30 p.m. ordering the Customs and Border Protection to enforce the executive order. > > “For those already here, we won’t actually know until the flights back to these areas begin departing,” Abed Ayoub of the ADC said about the crisis. > > “We’re hearing from a lot of people concerned about family members, friends, classmates. We’re hearing about a lot of folks asking ‘should I cancel my plans,’ and from folks who had to cancel events because of this.” > > People who were still in the air as of 10:30 p.m. likely face being blocked at the airport when their planes land, he said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-defeat-a-populist-leader-with-lessons-from-history/778327.md?page=3)