How to defend evolution

So you’d agree that those pesky quantum mechanics proponents I encountered last week around here can’t falsify my metaphysical claim that causality is the fundamental way in which the universe works? Good for that, those people actually thought their physics could shed light on metaphysics. If logically something must be true, then no scientist will ever be able to prove it false, or vice versa (my example was that if time travel was shown to be logically impossible, then no scientist will ever be able to build a time machine no matter how advanced his technology)…of course the question is what sort of logic is acceptable and what if anything can it possibly say…

Anyways, it’s even more restrictive than that. To be scientific a claim has to be more than simply falsifiable, that’s why we have 5-6 Daubert factors.

Arriving late in this thread…

I think care should be taken in ‘defending evolution’ - the view of many creationists is that evolution is a religious faith of some sort, or an attempt to prove that God does not exist, or is equivalent to humanism or atheism; from there, all kinds of strange ideas arise (“worship of monkey gods” being one of the strangest).

Most often (as has been said already), people criticising the theory of evolution have a very warped idea of what it actually is; for the most part, “evolution is a sham” can (begin to)be answered by a polite request for more detail; “what exactly is the theory of evolution, as you understand it?”.

RexDart

First of all, that part of my post was not addressed to Reverend. It was addressed to Blowero. Please be more careful when you’re quoting me.

Second, science is one branch of philosophy and logic is another. What is logically impossible cannot occur. But what is scientifically proved might not be completely right. All that is right, by scientific proof, is that a hypothesis is not wrong.

The problem with science proving truth can be understood in the context of logic. Declaring a scientific hypothesis to be true is to affirm its various consequents. It is a fallacy of the form A -> B; B is true, therefore A is true. Just because you have proved that one thing causes another does not mean you have proved anything generally about causation. A cow is a bovine, but a bovine is not necessarily a cow.

Also, I don’t see causality need be a metaphysical claim. I kick a ball. It moves. Nothing metaphysical about that.

I certainly do not understand this as scientifically as you guys, that is why I posted, to get a better understanding. But it sounds like some of you are mixing religion into this discussion. This is my fault because I said he was a creationist/ID. But now that we included religion, let me ask a hypothetical question, even though I do not think my friend holds this position. I am way behind the level of knowledge you guys have in this area so I will put in simple terms. Also please when you respond keep this in mind.

Do any of you think theistic evolution is possible?

I ask since it sounds like from the posts that science cannot explain religion and visa - versa. So why are we saying that science is the stick by which we measure? Why do we not judge science by religion? Religion has credible evidence that is not scientific. Does science have supporting evidence that is not scientific?

I guess I have raised 2 separate issues.

Theistic evolution is possible, but science can’t really take up a position on it, unless we find a way to observe the means by which God intervenes (if this happens though, that interaction ceases, by definition, to be supernatural)

RonM9

In the context of this thread, it might sound like I’m knocking science, but I’m not. It is a useful epistemology for explaining the how of things. But it just doesn’t explain the why. It’s not meant to, and so it shouldn’t be expected to. Science is based on falsification, but falsification itself is not falsifiable.

Myself, I think you have a pretty good grip on things. Religion has no epistemic authority over science, and science has no epistemic authority over religion.

BUT, if you are speaking about the processes of the physical world and how they operate, religion is useless to you. Only science is useful in that regard. A god of the gaps is a puny god indeed.

And yes, depending on what you mean, theistic evolution is possible in my opinion. But that is not a scientific opinion. And it can’t be.

RexDart, as one of the pesky Quantum Mechanics proponents I’m still not sure why you think it violates causality. Also, I’m not sure what a “metaphysical claim” is and whether it can be falsified at all.

One metaphysical claim is that God created the universe. And it cannot be falsified because it cannot be tested. Interestingly, another metaphysical claim is that God did not create the universe.

Of course it’s possible. But here’s the problem: You haven’t defined “theistic evolution”. What use is asking if something is possible, if you have no idea what that thing is? Now, if your friend can suggest a mechanism by which theistic evolution works, and uncover evidence that fits it, then he might have something.

I don’t think it’s possible to disprove the notion that God controls evolution; but the problem is that the idea doesn’t add to our understanding in any way. If we can simply add an uneccesary layer of explanation to an idea and accept it as fact, then we could just continue to add layers ad infinitum:
“God controls evolution”
“Splurn controls God”
“Fleen controls Splurn”
etc.

I don’t think the former is true. Science can explain religion quite satisfactorily, as an artifact of the human brain.

I think a lot of people do use religion as their measuring stick. Personally, I don’t. I find science to be a more rational way of looking at the universe. YMMV.

Could you be more specific? What evidence would you say is credible, yet not scientific?

Darwin’s:

Precisely what are the claims of the ID movement? I get the impression that it’s warmed-over Biblical creationism, but the definition has been kept vague. I’ll admit that I am guilty of “god of the gaps” thinking in that I speculate that there may have been intelligent design taking place over the incremental course of evolution. But damn straight life evolved gradually over billions of years and the Bible is bunk. So whither ID?

Hmmm… well, take a look at the following sites:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html
http://www.idurc.org/
http://www.origins.org/
http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~idea/

Sorry about that. I cut the parts of your post I wasn’t addressing, and must have inadvertently left the beginning of your reply to Rev at the top of the quote in which you were responding to blowero. Innocent mistake, no need to get worked up about it :cool:

I wasn’t worked up. I even said, “please”. :slight_smile:

The answer is a bit muddled, because it seems that every major proponent has his own flavor of ID. Michael Behe, one of the most famous, posits that “irreducible complexity” is the key to detecting intelligent design. An irreducibly complex system is one in which if you remove any of the component parts, the whole thing stops working. As such, it could not possibly have evolved through natural selection since those multiple, interconnected parts would all have to have arisen simultaneously. This ignores such concepts as I alluded to earlier: mosaic evolution and exaptation. It also capitalizes on our present lack of knowledge regarding the evolutionary history of many complex systems: if we can’t explain how it evolved via natural selection, then the reason must lie in the fact that it didn’t evolve via natural selection, and was therefore designed by some external intelligence. Thus the “God of the gaps” characterization.

Another proponent, William Dembski, claims that “specified complexity” is the key. Life, he says, is both “specified” and “complex”. By “complex”, he means very improbable, and uses a bunch of misplaced information theory to explain why the improbability is so great that it simply could not have been produced by natural forces. By “specified” he means…well, I’m not really sure what he means. Every "definition " I’ve read has been very vague at best, and unusable within any empirical methodology.

Both are fond of pointing to “the” bacterial flagellum (seemingly ignoring the fact that flagella come in many forms, some much simpler than others) as an example of either irreducible complexity or specified complexity. You can read a pretty good summary of both versions of the argument for design of the flagellum (as well as a rebuttal of both) here.

Also, note that the unifying theme of ID is that design is empirically detectable. A useful methodology for detecting this design has not been elaborated, however. There is also the underlying assumption that natural forces cannot produce the complexity seen in nature, and that materialistic metaphysics are therefore false (Dembski, for one, has outright stated that naturalism is false). In other words, like so-called “creation scientists”, they are attempting to use science to validate a metaphysic.

You can also see this Great Debates thread, among many others - just do a search for “intelligent design”, “Dembske” or “Behe”, and you’ll probably find lots of other definitions & critiques.

The claims of the ID movement can b roughly summed up as follows:[ul][li]Look at this organ. Sure looks complicated, doesn’t it?[/li][li]I can’t figure out how such an organ could have arisen without being designed.[/li][li]Therefore, no one else can possibly figure out how such an organ could have arisen without being designed, either.[/li][li]Therefore, the organ must have been designed.[/li][li]Therefore, every organ in every creature everywhere must have been designed.[/li][li]Therefore, Evolution is entirely wrong.[/li][li]Therefore, the Biblical story of Creation is entirely right.[/li]Therefore, Jesus really did die for man’s sins and you’re all going to burn in hell unless you tithe to my church.[/ul]Did I miss anything?

Yes. Practically everything. Luckily, though, Finch was here.

Actually, when you remove all of the pseudoscientific jargon and spurious claims, it becomes clear that the proponents of ID believe something quite similar to tracer’s parody. ID itself doesn’t make those claims, but ID is quietly used to support them.

Don’t tell me. It’s a conspiracy, right?

All right, I won’t.

Somebody’s been reading Gould! :slight_smile: