# How To Dissolve A Catholic Marriage To A Bum **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 13, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490 "2008-11-13T05:00:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/1 "2008-11-13T05:00:16Z")
I was reading a story and basically the plot is, the girl is a nice, Roman Catholic girl. She finds a guy, who is, for lack of a better word, a bum. She marries him and then he starts goofing off. He won’t get a job, he leaves for day or even weeks a time, then comes back. He’s not abusive to her physically or mentally, he’s just a lazy good for nothing. When she confront him, he says, “That’s why I married you in the Catholic church as there is no divorce and you’re stuck with me forever.” Now as a plot line it’s good, but if it was real life would there be any way to divorce, annul or somehow else dissolve this marriage? Or would she be stuck with him in real life? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/2 "2008-11-13T05:04:01Z")
She can divorce him in the usual fashion. The Church may not approve, but can’t stop it from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/3 "2008-11-13T06:08:19Z")
She could argue that his lack of support indicates that he never truly intended to marry, in which case the marriage could be annulled. I don’t know how successful that tactic would be, though. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/4 "2008-11-13T06:42:56Z")
AFAIK, she can divorce all right. The Catholic church could do nothing about that , except two things: -shun you -refuse to have you married a second time _in church._ ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/5 "2008-11-13T07:39:56Z")
Assuming this story is set in reasonably modern times, she’d have a good argument for an annulment. Certainly there’s no reason she can’t obtain a legal divorce, although the Catholic Church would not consider that to be the end of the marriage. The term “shun” implies a lot more than would really happen - technically a priest would be expected to deny her communion after the divorce (at least until the annulment was granted), but it isn’t like her Catholic friends and family would be expected to ignore her or stop inviting her to their homes. And from what I’ve observed, priests vary in how strict they are about not letting divorced people take communion. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/6 "2008-11-13T09:48:15Z")
There’s something else wrong with the story. Why did this guy marry her? Did he think that he could live off her money for the rest of his life? All she has to do is file for a legal separation. The Catholic church wouldn’t object to that. She moves to her own dwelling. He now can’t live off her money. What happens at that point? He could starve to death, in which case she is rid of him. Or he could leave her and take up with another woman who he can sponge off of, in which case she has a good case for an annulment from the church because of adultery. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/7 "2008-11-13T11:36:30Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > She marries him and **then** he starts goofing off. … > > When she confront him, he says, “That’s why I married you in the Catholic church as there is no divorce and you’re stuck with me forever.” The bold and underline makes it “false identity:” he lied, purposefully, about his fundamental personality. Not in a “trying to be my best for the one I love” way, which is normal, but as a purposeful lie. The second part means that he doesn’t believe in the sacramental nature of marriage and has no intent to do his part (beyond perhaps “partaking of marriage benefits” if she’s dumb enough to spread for him after discovering what a git he is). So she could hie herself to an eclesiastic lawyer and get the farce annulled. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/8 "2008-11-13T11:50:54Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Or he could leave her and take up with another woman who he can sponge off of, in which case she has a good case for an annulment from the church because of adultery. I don’t believe that adultery is considered a valid reason to annul the original marriage vows, in catholic thinking. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/9 "2008-11-13T12:02:20Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I don’t believe that adultery is considered a valid reason to annul the original marriage vows, in catholic thinking. I know several persons who have gotten annulments because of adulterous spouses. I believe it comes under the diriment reasons listed in this [Wikipedia article on Catholic annulments](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment_(Catholic_Church)), specifically evidence of adultery is proof of “No intention, when marrying, to remain faithful to the spouse (simulation of consent).” AIUI, however, it’s also important to note that each diocese has it’s own ways of interpreting such rules and Canon laws. Liberal diocese may accept that reasoning more or less automatically, while more conservative ones try for a higher standard of proof. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/10 "2008-11-13T14:32:44Z")
I’m purely going from what I was taught in Catholic school, in the amusingly named class “Love, Sex, and Marriage”, but IIRC the Church doesn’t have anything against divorce as a legal matter. That is, if spouses cannot resolve their differences, and want to go through the legal process of dividing their lives - property, children, etc. - the Church is OK with that, and both people can continue to receive the sacraments. However, in the eyes of the Church, they’re still married to each other. So sex with anyone else is adultery, not fornication, you cannot get married in the Church again, if you get married outside the Church you cannot receive the sacraments. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/11 "2008-11-13T14:50:54Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > . . . - technically a priest would be expected to deny her communion after the divorce (at least until the annulment was granted), . . . Actually, (although the rules may vary by diocese), she would not be denied communion unless she began to publicly cohabit with another man (either in civil marriage or “without benefit of clergy.” There are conditions surrounding divorce that might be a bar to the sacraments, but the mere fact of a divorce is not. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/12 "2008-11-13T18:20:53Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Now as a plot line it’s good, but if it was real life would there be any way to divorce, annul or somehow else dissolve this marriage? Or would she be stuck with him in real life? Totally unrealistic. Even in pre-Vatican II days, this woman would not have been stuck with the bum for the rest of her life. My grandmother, an Irish immigrant who was very Roman Catholic, was legallally separated from my grandfather, and raised my father and uncle herself. She was a single mother and lived her life no differently from a woman without religious barriers to divorce, but was still married until the day she died. There was no permanent and unbreakable tie to my grandfather. In short, the story is just plain wrong on this point. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/13 "2008-11-13T18:28:59Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > I was reading a story and basically the plot is, the girl is a nice, Roman Catholic girl. > > She finds a guy, who is, for lack of a better word, a bum. > > She marries him and then he starts goofing off. He won’t get a job, he leaves for day or even weeks a time, then comes back. He’s not abusive to her physically or mentally, he’s just a lazy good for nothing. > > When she confront him, he says, “That’s why I married you in the Catholic church as there is no divorce and you’re stuck with me forever.” > > Now as a plot line it’s good, but if it was real life would there be any way to divorce, annul or somehow else dissolve this marriage? Or would she be stuck with him in real life? I have a friend of a friend who married just such a bum, who never abused her but certainly bankrupted her. She divorced in the legal sense but was barred from taking communion at her local Catholic church. She later applied for, and was granted, a Catholic annulment through some complicated procedure. I don’t know the reasons she put forward for the annulment, but think it was something to do with him not taking his vows seriously when he made them. When the annulment came through she felt bereft, strangely. Unlike the divorce, the annulment effectively said her marriage had never happened, which made her feel like ten years of her life never happened. Human feelings are odd things, but she said this made her feel much worse than ‘merely’ getting divorced. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/14 "2008-11-13T19:01:07Z")
Well I am thinking from the story’s point of view. The fact is the girl is a Catholic. She knows she can legally get a divorce but so what, she can’t get remarried. So she’s either stuck with a bum who’s nice to her for the few hours he’s around, or she can get rid of him and spend the next 50 years alone. (she’s 21) She won’t do anything against the Catholic faith. This is taking place in the early 1900s. The guy says “Oh dear I know I am no good to you. I am no good to anyone. That is why I wanted so much to marry you in the Catholic faith. Because there is no divorce and this way, though I am no good, you can never leave me.” See how dramatic it is. Again I was looking for a way out WITHIN the church, so she can continue to be a good Catholic and live a nice life, not just spend the next 50 years alone because she can’t remarry. ---
**Author:** ![Caveat\_lector\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@Caveat\_lector\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caveat_lector_1)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/15 "2008-11-13T20:01:22Z")
You’ve kind of been given a way as he purposefully misrepresented himself in an essential way. > [@](#): > > Can. 1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life. Now IANACL\* but I could see how what he did was enough of a misrepresentation to count as something that could gravely disturb the partnership and I think there is obviously deception with malice so I could see how grounds for an annulment could be argued. (\*I am not a canon lawyer) ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/16 "2008-11-13T20:33:44Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > I have a friend of a friend who married just such a bum, who never abused her but certainly bankrupted her. She divorced in the legal sense but \*\*was barred from taking communion \*\*at her local Catholic church. As Tom mentioned, I don’t know why this would be the case, unless she took up with another partner or something else was going on. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/17 "2008-11-13T20:34:42Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > This is taking place in the early 1900s. Ah, new info. Back then, even her ability to get a civil divorce might be questionable – wasn’t it much harder to do a century ago? In your story, you’d better establish what state this is in, and what their laws were at that time, to make it believable. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/18 "2008-11-13T20:47:32Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > She won’t do anything against the Catholic faith. > > This is taking place in the early 1900s. > > The guy says “Oh dear I know I am no good to you. I am no good to anyone. That is why I wanted so much to marry you in the Catholic faith. Because there is no divorce and this way, though I am no good, you can never leave me.” > > See how dramatic it is. > > Again I was looking for a way out WITHIN the church, so she can continue to be a good Catholic and live a nice life, not just spend the next 50 years alone because she can’t remarry. No, it’s not dramatic, because it rests on a mistaken perception of Catholic divorce. Legal separation and annullment would have both been options for her. The crux of the issue is not: “Is there a canon-law way out for this woman?” The issue is: “When (not if) she talks to her parish priest, is he an asshole or is he willing to give her these options?” I say “not if” because it is literally unthinkable that such a woman as described would not go to her parish priest about the issue. If there is no mention of her consulting her priest, the story’s credibility and believability plummets. I stress again that this would have been available in pre-Vatican II days. That is, it doesn’t matter if the story is set in 1800, 1900, or anytime up to 1965. The way the issue is framed, it sounds like the writer is a non-Catholic only partially aware of Catholic law on divorce. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/19 "2008-11-13T21:34:06Z")
Are we assuming the bum was himself a baptised Christian? If he wasn’t, the marriage would only be a natural one, rather than a sacramental one. The Catholic wife, if she wished to marry another Christian, could petition for the dissolution of the natural marriage using the ‘Petrine Privilege’, also known as the ‘Privilege of the Faith’: > [@](#): > > A Petrine Privilege or Privilege of the Faith is a dissolution of marriage in which at least one of the parties to a previous marriage was non-baptised throughout the entire duration of their married life. If the petitioner is the non-baptised party or was baptised in another Christian church, he or she must either wish to be baptised or received into the Catholic Church, or seek to marry a baptised, practising Catholic. If the petitioner is a baptised Catholic who was married to a non-baptised person, he or she must either wish to enter into marriage with a baptised Christian, or promise to enter marriage with a baptised Christian in the future. Privilege of the Faith cases involve a special petition to the Holy Father and are decided in Rome. Such decisions are reserved to the Pope. I have no idea how often they’re granted nowadays. Or how often they would have been granted in the early 1900s. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490/20 "2008-11-13T23:08:08Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > I say “not if” because it is literally unthinkable that such a woman as described would not go to her parish priest about the issue. If there is no mention of her consulting her priest, the story’s credibility and believability plummets. And when she finally snaps and kills the bum, the priest she consulted (assuming he’s not of the asshole persuasion), knowing the whole story, could absolve her. Of course, there’d still be a civilian murder charge, but that’s a different plot point. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissolve-a-catholic-marriage-to-a-bum/472490.md?page=2)