# How to dissuade a newbie Trump supporter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551 "2015-11-14T13:30:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/41 "2015-11-15T08:58:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > On the other hand, and in a real world sense, Trump has not only not been sexist, he’s been great for and with women. He has hired and elevated many smart and talented women to powerful executive positions within his organization and has done so for decades. Omarosa doesn’t count. > [@](#): > > Works for me. Twice he’s built multi-billion dollar empires from virtually nothing. Twice, you say? What happened to the first one? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/42 "2015-11-15T09:30:17Z")
A downturn in the economy and the real estate market, combined with a few mistakes which he has been frank in admitting. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/43 "2015-11-15T09:54:11Z")
Did he build his empires because of upturns in the economy and real estate market? No thanks, I’d prefer a president who plans and prepares for bad times, and maybe even avoids them. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/44 "2015-11-15T10:16:15Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Did he build his empires because of upturns in the economy and real estate market? Probably. But how many other people had the foresight, intelligence, discipline, credibility with investors, savvy in dealing with banks, contractors, architects, managers and the almost limitless other qualities that allowed him to ride that uptick to where he is now? About 1 in 300 million would be my guess. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > No thanks, I’d prefer a president who plans and prepares for bad times, and maybe even avoids them. Did Hillary plan, prepare for and avoid defeat by Obama? Of course the answer is no, and I’ll wager you’ll be voting for her anyway. Scratch any successful person and you’ll find they’ve failed at some time in their history. Often several times. It’s unrealistic and foolish to expect to elect a candidate who’s never failed at anything. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/45 "2015-11-15T10:41:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Probably. But how many other people had the foresight, intelligence, discipline, credibility with investors, savvy in dealing with banks, contractors, architects, managers and the almost limitless other qualities that allowed him to ride that uptick to where he is now? About 1 in 300 million would be my guess. How many had the foresight, etc. to avoid the downturn? > [@](#): > > Scratch any successful person and you’ll find they’ve failed at some time in their history. Often several times. It’s unrealistic and foolish to expect to elect a candidate who’s never failed at anything. Oh sure, however… …if someone touts their business success as an asset, it’s fair to bring up their failures. …I expect someone to be equally realistic about their successes and failures. It’s not fair to say “my success is a unique result of my brilliance, 1 in 300 million; my failure was part of a downturn, coulda happened to anybody.” What were these mistakes that Trump has been so frank in admitting? …Trump wouldn’t be risking just his fortune as president, he’d be risking all of ours. Two fortunes and one bust? I don’t like those odds. I’ll take slow, sustained growth for the economy, thanks. …running a country is not the same as running a business. Being good at one doesn’t mean you’ll be any good at the other. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/46 "2015-11-15T11:57:17Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > …if someone touts their business success as an asset, it’s fair to bring up their failures. Certainly. I never said otherwise. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > …I expect someone to be equally realistic about their successes and failures. It’s not fair to say “my success is a unique result of my brilliance, 1 in 300 million; my failure was part of a downturn, coulda happened to anybody.” What were these mistakes that Trump has been so frank in admitting? IIRC, he said that part of the problem was that he made some bad decisions. (I trust you’re not going try to use his candor to suggest that anyone elected president should be someone who’s never made any bad decisions. Because, you know, that would be both unrealistic and silly.) > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > …Trump wouldn’t be risking just his fortune as president, he’d be risking all of ours. Two fortunes and one bust? I don’t like those odds. I’ll take slow, sustained growth for the economy, thanks. Well, then, you should like Trump. His history is roughly fifty years of sustained growth with a two year blip in the middle, from which he recovered magnificently. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > …running a country is not the same as running a business. Being good at one doesn’t mean you’ll be any good at the other. And it doesn’t mean you won’t be either. I’ll take Trump’s savvy and experience and negotiating talent and proven ability to get complex and difficult things done over an empty sack like Obama or a whatever-she-is-who-can-say candidate like Hillary Clinton any day. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/47 "2015-11-15T13:11:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, then, you should like Trump. His history is roughly fifty years of sustained growth with a two year blip in the middle, from which he recovered magnificently. The four business bankruptcies, do they not count for some reason? See, amid all the other stuff about Trump, he strikes me as someone who has always been out for himself; lend his name to something, get other people to invest, and when it goes down the tubes he gets to walk away. Trump bought a team in the USFL and pushed for the league to move its season from the spring to the fall, where it failed and the whole league folded. The Trump golf course in Puerto Rico declared bankruptcy this past summer. What do his partners in those failed ventures think of him? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/48 "2015-11-15T13:21:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Probably. But how many other people had the foresight, intelligence, discipline, credibility with investors, savvy in dealing with banks, contractors, architects, managers and the almost limitless other qualities that allowed him to ride that uptick to where he is now? About 1 in 300 million would be my guess. Sounds once again like the old “he was born on third base and goes through life thinking that he hit a triple.” > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Did Hillary plan, prepare for and avoid defeat by Obama? Of course the answer is no, and I’ll wager you’ll be voting for her anyway. And this point is silly, Trump also ran for the presidency before and lost, with much worse results that Hillary. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Scratch any successful person and you’ll find they’ve failed at some time in their history. Often several times. It’s unrealistic and foolish to expect to elect a candidate who’s never failed at anything. And that is why I will vote for Hillary. [snip of later post] [QUOTE=Starving Artist] And it doesn’t mean you won’t be either. I’ll take Trump’s savvy and experience and negotiating talent and proven ability to get complex and difficult things done over an empty sack like Obama or a whatever-she-is-who-can-say candidate like Hillary Clinton any day. [/quote] As secretary of state Clinton was one of the voices that convinced Obama to take the risk and get Bin Laden. The only advise that Trump has given to republicans in power is to stand aside, but that does include Republican senators that advised him to stay away from Arpaio. Again, Trump is an incompetent for that and many other reasons, or he still knows that he did go to bed with a fellow that was judged by the courts to be breaking laws against discrimination, likely now to be in contempt of court, abusing his power by investigating the family of the judge that is presiding in his contempt of court case, and bankrupting the county; and Trump does not care because he is like Arpaio indeed. Denying science would not be bad in itself too but knowing that Trump denies science that has deep implication in future regulations for the USA is also a sign of incompetence for higher office. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/49 "2015-11-15T13:57:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Sounds once again like the old "he was born on third base and goes through life thinking that he hit a triple. Turning a million into 2 billion (which is what he was worth when things went south) is the same as turning $1 into $2,000. You might want to poo poo the dollar he was given to start out, but he was hardly on third base in becoming a multi-billionaire. (And don’t forget, he’s done that twice.) > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And this point is silly, Trump also ran for the presidency before and lost, with much worse results that Hillary. He did? When was that, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/50 "2015-11-15T14:15:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Turning a million into 2 billion (which is what he was worth when things went south) is the same as turning $1 into $2,000. You might want to poo poo the dollar he was given to start out, but he was hardly on third base in becoming a multi-billionaire. (And don’t forget, he’s done that twice.) :rolleyes: Connections do make a lot of a difference in America, and turning $1 into 2,000 is not the same when one starts with a lot of money, leverage and other tools facilitate the effort to get much more money. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > He did? When was that, exactly? > **[Here's a Timeline of Every Time Donald Trump Ran for President](https://www.tvguide.com/news/donald-trump-presidential-campaign-timeline/)** > [@](#): > > 2000: Trump enters the presidential race as a Reform Party candidate and receives more than 15,000 votes in the party’s California primary More recently he tried in 2011 but failed to even run and also his choice in the end was a bad one. > [@](#): > > March 2011: A Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll shows Trump leading all presidential contenders, including Mitt Romney. > > April 2011: Amid more research polls indicating that he would be the preferred Republican presidential candidate among voters, Trump repeatedly calls for President Obama to release his long-form birth certificate, questioning whether Obama was actually born in the United States. (Obama eventually complies and releases the birth certificate.) > > May 2011: Trump officially announces that he will not run for president. > > February 2012: Trump endorses Republican candidate Mitt Romney for president. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/51 "2015-11-15T14:57:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As secretary of state Clinton was one of the voices that convinced Obama to take the risk and get Bin Laden. > > . Too bad she couldn’t convince her husband to do the same a few years earlier. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/52 "2015-11-15T15:02:55Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Too bad she couldn’t convince her husband to do the same a few years earlier. A mistake that she corrected as mentioned, of curse she was the first lady then, and we know that she would had been crucified if it was demonstrated that she told Bill what to do. But thank you for reminding all that Bush failed to get him in Tora Bora and then to shut up all then Bush invaded Iraq to show that he was doing something. Not sure what that did, but Bin Laden was declared to be “not important” by Bush by then. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/53 "2015-11-15T15:14:46Z")
Getting back to subject: One big reason to not let Trump become president (besides all the ones mentioned already) his tax plan is fantasy and even conservatives say so. > **[Donald Trump's tax plan is a fantasy](https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2015/09/28/donald-trumps-tax-plan-is-a-fantasy)** > > United States > [@](#): > > IT takes a certain chutzpah to propose bigger tax cuts than your rival, claim your plan is cheaper and then suggest your sums add up due to “common sense”. This is what Donald Trump, the iconoclastic frontrunner for the Republican nomination, did on the morning of September 28th, when he became the second leading Republican candidate to publish a tax plan, following Jeb Bush’s effort earlier this month. Critics of Mr Bush’s plan said it was a giveaway for high-earners, funded by optimistic assumptions about its effect on growth. On both counts, Mr Trump, who has never suffered from a lack of gall, makes Mr Bush look positively pussyfooted. > > The plan burnishes Mr Trump’s Republican credentials by giving high earners whacking tax cuts. Individuals earning more than $150,000 will see their marginal tax rate fall from close to 40% now to 25%, three percentage points lower than under Mr Bush’s plan. Whereas the former Governor of Florida wants merely to double the standard deduction, the amount that can be earned before paying tax, to $11,300, Mr Trump would quadruple it, to $25,000 (or $50,000 for a married couple). This would remove more than half of households from the income tax rolls altogether, he says. > [@](#): > > Mr Trump is supposed to be a new kind of politician; a straight-talker who, freed from the usual constraints of politics by his billions, tells it like it is. But promising to fund tax cuts by closing unspecified loopholes is an old political wheeze. Mr Trump says the country’s “top” economists helped to develop his plan; alas, for now they remain anonymous. Any contributor would be wise to stay in the background. Mr Trump’s plan is twaddle. > **[Donald Trump's Tax Plan Could Balloon The Debt By 75 Percent](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-tax-plan_n_560ac15ce4b0af3706de0539)** > > Make favorable growth projections, and the results are still insane. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON – Donald Trump’s tax plan would increase the national debt by more than 75 percent over the next decade, according to an analysis by a conservative think tank. > > Trump claims on his website that his plan “doesn’t add to our debt.” But the businessman-birther, who believes wrongly that vaccines cause autism, should at least recognize when numbers don’t add up. > > The plan, introduced on Monday, promises massive benefits for wealthy Americans. Trump would reduce the top income tax rate from 39.6 percent to 25 percent, slash the tax rate for the largest corporations from 35 percent to 15 percent, lower the tax rate on stock and bond profits, and entirely eliminate the estate tax. That last tax applies only to the estates of dead millionaires, while securities earnings overwhelmingly flow to the very richest households. > > As a result, the Tax Foundation found that Trump’s plan would boost the incomes of the top 1 percent of taxpayers by 21.8 percent, while those of the lowest-income Americans would rise by only 1.4 percent. The national debt, meanwhile, would jump by $12 trillion over the next decade. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/54 "2015-11-15T17:20:45Z")
Also in line with the OP, I’ve found that Trump’s cluelessness and thought that he’s [above the law, no matter how minor the law might be](http://www.cc.com/video-clips/slbivd/the-colbert-report-difference-makers---donald-trump), to be a stunning endorsement for someone else. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/55 "2015-11-15T17:27:18Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Also in line with the OP, I’ve found that Trump’s cluelessness and thought that he’s [above the law, no matter how minor the law might be](http://www.cc.com/video-clips/slbivd/the-colbert-report-difference-makers---donald-trump), to be a stunning endorsement for someone else. You mean like that Kennedy kid (long since dead from rampant stupidity) that had a shitload of unpaid parking tickets till he was hired to be a major legal big wig or some such? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/56 "2015-11-15T17:48:50Z")
The Kennedy family is hardly relevant to this conversation, but yes. That standard should be applied both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/57 "2015-11-15T18:54:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How much money did you donate to the Donald Trump Foundation? > > Are you also stingy? > > (That link excoriates Trump for not donating to The Donald Trump Foundation; unless I missed it, there is nothing about his overall charitable contributions there). Is that the only thing you object to of the links given? I’ve donated the exact same amount as he has for the years it listed Trump gave nothing to his own charity. In terms of real money that Trump has donated to all charities, I’m sure he has devoted more than I. In terms of percentage of money earned, compared to money given, I think not only I, but that many would be way out in front of him although it’s hard to say. It just seems suspicious to me that he is really all that much more giving to other charities, when he done so little to giving to his own. So, in twenty years, he can’t but muster up but [3.7 million dollars for his own charity?](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/celebrity/trump-least-charitable-billionaire-109247) That link describes other charities he has also given to. My own charity rarely goes to organized ones, but it is far more than money, it’s also my time and labor I’ve devoted to helping individuals and families rebuilding their homes, fixing their cars for free, and waiving rent for many dozens of individuals over the years, when I felt like circumstances were warranted. I especially like when others ask me to teach them some skill set, which is what I really prefer because I feel like it gives them the most self-worth. If Trump is a bigger and ardent philanthropist than others including myself are aware of, I figured he’d be the first to tell us, but unfortunately for him, others continue to run what he says through fact checkers, and it rarely paints him in the light he prefers others to perceive him. **TSG** closes with: > [@](#): > > On his web site, Trump describes himself as an “ardent philanthropist” whose charitable activities are “an integral part of his ethos. He is the archetypal businessman, and an icon of New York.” Oh, he is also “the most recognized businessman in the world,” a trailblazer whose “acumen is unrivaled, and the diversity of his interests has set a new paradigm in the world of business.” > > Strangely, though the billionaire’s web site chronicles every aspect of his life in great detail–children, books, golf courses, Trump chocolate, Trump bedding, beauty pageants, Trump spring water, Trump bath rugs–his purported “ardent” philanthropy is not further described. Which is odd, considering Trump–whose superlatives have their own superlatives–has never been shy about gassily trumpeting every last one of his world-beating achievements. > > Such modesty would be refreshing were it valid. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/58 "2015-11-15T19:34:58Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Is that the only thing you object to of the links given? So far as I could discern, the other links were fair support for the claims being made. The link I objected to was not. > [@](#): > > I’ve donated the exact same amount as he has for the years it listed Trump gave nothing to his own charity. In terms of real money that Trump has donated to all charities, I’m sure he has devoted more than I. But you’re not stingy. Because you have other charitable activities, and the mere fact that you gave nothing to the Trump Foundation is insufficient to conclude you’re stingy. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551/59 "2015-11-15T20:28:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But you’re not stingy. Because you have other charitable activities, and the mere fact that you gave nothing to the Trump Foundation is insufficient to conclude you’re stingy. Right? Right, not conclusive, but if the links are accurate, I do think they give fairly sufficient clues as to how giving he really is. TSG went over his tax returns for twenty years, and they cited other charities, but his giving seemed just as paltry to other charities as to his own foundation. I think you’d agree Trump would not be shy in enlightening us in more detail as to his other philanthropic contributions if they are as HUGE as he would like for us to believe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-dissuade-a-newbie-trump-supporter/737551.md?page=2)