# How to Explain that the Democracy Crisis Transcends Principle **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** kamala-harris\ **Created:** [October 17, 2024, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920 "2024-10-17T14:29:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/81 "2024-10-21T23:56:19Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Does the Left have any consideration for it’s own self-perseveration? The communist dialectic says societal change comes from radical means. It’s all part of the plan. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/82 "2024-10-21T23:57:16Z")
> [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > Has any group ever reacted the way you demand the Left to react? Oh sure. Soviet Communists for one. Stalin made a pact with Hitler. Then he [deported German communists back to Fascist Germany](https://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article7284), at least the ones he didn’t kill outright. In terms of groups, plenty of people routinely hold their nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. The [1991 Louisiana Gubanatorial election comes to mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Louisiana_gubernatorial_election), when David Duke was defeated by a Democrat. Bumper stickers read, “Vote for the crook. It’s important.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/83 "2024-10-22T01:37:46Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > > > Does anyone owe the Left any consideration for their assistance in the Great Project of saving democracy other than further open contempt? > > > Former President Trump’s suggestion that U.S. troops could be used to go after “radical-left lunatics” following the presidential election {…} > > Trump, who warned Sunday that he could deploy active or National Guard troops to counter the “enemy from within,” {…} > > [https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/4935363-trump-proposes-deploying-troops-radical-left/](https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/4935363-trump-proposes-deploying-troops-radical-left/) > > Does the Left have any consideration for it’s own self-perseveration? Don’t you remember all those times that Kamala and Biden had leftists killed? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/84 "2024-10-22T02:09:17Z")
> [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > Does the Center have some flexibility to show as well? Yeah because no historical account is ever critical of anyone other than the socialists in 1920s Germany. Other than them the term Weimar Republic is synonymous with liberals being effective and not utterly crap in the face of the rise of fascism 🙄 The reason it’s such a telling indictment of far left Trump enablers like the one in the OP, is it’s not the liberals who are so fond of absolutist “with us or with the fascists” statements. It’s the far left who love that kind of thing. Well here you are a real life fascist is on the verge of power and you can either do something about it (by voting and otherwise supporting the Harris campaign) or be complicit in his seizing power, and all the things that will result. > [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > Does anyone owe the Left any consideration for their assistance in the Great Project of saving democracy other than further open contempt? Not that’s it’s super relevant to the OP but any “consideration” owed the far left is cancelled out by the fact the next thing they did in the “grand project of saving democracy” was to ally with the nazis and invade Poland with them, ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/85 "2024-10-22T02:16:13Z")
As if this post and this thread are not examples of “with us or with the fascists.” It is only the Left that does that. Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/86 "2024-10-22T02:29:07Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Maybe she’s playing the radicalization card of wanting things to become so bad that it sparks open rebellion and revolution. If she actually is a communist that’s a long-standing move from the Marxist playbook. The problem is that it’s also a long-standing move from the fascist playbook. When democracies collapse, sometimes they’re replaced with left-wing dictatorships and sometimes they’re replaced with right-wing dictatorships. Personally, I think if democracy collapses in this country, we’ll get a right-wing dictatorship. They’re the ones doing the prep work. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/87 "2024-10-22T02:37:03Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > When Hitler was rising to power the Communists in Germany said, “After Hitler, our turn,” meaning he would make things so bad they’d look like a good alternative. Some even [joined the Nazi party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefsteak_Nazi). It didn’t work out so well for them. That’s arguable. After all, the communists did end up taking over from the Nazis in half of Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/88 "2024-10-22T03:02:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s arguable. After all, the communists did end up taking over from the Nazis in half of Germany. Only because an external force of that persuasion invaded and occupied them. No such external forces exists to do the same in the case of the US, even if such a thing could happen without the result being a nuclear war. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/89 "2024-10-22T03:04:12Z")
> [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > As if this post and this thread are not examples of “with us or with the fascists.” It is only the Left that does that. Sure Yup it took 8 years and taking the US to brink of fascism but the rest the political establishment has come around to your way of thinking. Feel free to gloat self righteously and throw out as many I-told-you-sos as you want as you vote for Harris ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/90 "2024-10-22T03:05:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Only because an external force of that persuasion invaded and occupied them. No such external forces exists to do the same in the case of the US, even if such a thing could happen without the result being a nuclear war. We can say that now. But if Trump gets a second term, he might invite Putin to station Russian troops here in America. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/91 "2024-10-22T03:15:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We can say that now. But if Trump gets a second term, he might invite Putin to station Russian troops here in America. But modern Russia is fascist, _not_ communist regardless of the lies the Russophile portions of the far left tell themselves. So that still wouldn’t result in a leftist dictatorship but a right wing one. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/92 "2024-10-22T03:44:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > After all, the communists did end up taking over from the Nazis in half of Germany. All of 'em illegal immigrants. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/93 "2024-10-22T03:56:20Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > After all, the communists did end up taking over from the Nazis in half of Germany > > All of 'em illegal immigrants 🙂 I believe in one previous thread I asked where the hell did the Soviets find any indigenous communists in eastern Germany, given how thoroughly the native ones were exterminated. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/94 "2024-10-22T04:02:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But modern Russia is fascist, _not_ communist regardless of the lies the Russophile portions of the far left tell themselves. So that still wouldn’t result in a leftist dictatorship but a right wing one. My point was that we can’t rule out the possibility of foreign military forces interfering in American political issues under a Trump administration, not what ideology the resulting dictatorship might be. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/95 "2024-10-22T04:03:19Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I believe in one previous thread I asked where the hell did the Soviets find any indigenous communists in eastern Germany, given how thoroughly the native ones were exterminated. Conversion by the sword; they only needed to point a gun at someone and ask if they were communist to find plenty of communists. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/96 "2024-10-22T05:28:27Z")
> [@lum\_s\_husband](#): > > Does anyone owe the Left any consideration for their assistance in the Great Project of saving democracy other than further open contempt? I’ll give props for the leftie Popular Front Republicans in the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) as well as all those who volunteered to fight Hitler, whatever their politics. I’m honestly not sure what to think about the Soviet Union under Stalin. Stalin was about Stalin. He didn’t do much paperwork. In fact, he didn’t make many routine decisions. [Based on Bazhanov’s memoir on what he did as Stalin’s Secretary, Wilson Center fellow Kamil Galeev explains:](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1516813269947793421.html) > [@](#): > > When Bazhanov became Stalin’s secretary he would enter his cabinet for a dozen times a day to get his decision on this or that governmental request: > > - Comrade Stalin, what will be your order? > - Well, what do you think yourself? > > But Bazhanov had not authority to make a decision Image > So Bazhanov would suggest a procedural decision: > > - We must send it to Politburo/Central Committee/government/return it back to the agency to amend their proposal > - Do it then > > What surprised Bazhanov is that Stalin wouldn’t even open all those papers. He didn’t care at all > > Surprised Bazhanov discussed it with other members of Stalin’s apparatus and they explained him that comrade Stalin doesn’t read the papers and isn’t interested in all this business. So what the hell did Stalin do in his office all day? He listened in on phone calls, without the knowledge of the people who were talking. Technologically it was a sweet system set up by a Czechoslovok Communist engineer, who was later executed. Along with many others afterwards. Anyway, the Communist Party of Russia has always been concerned about the possibility of military coup. So they made very sure there would be no popular generals on their watch. Since competent generals are often popular, the Communist Party preferred incompetents, as does Putin. Bad decisions were baked in. Luckily, they had American industry backing them up after Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. While I suppose Private Ivan deserves my thanks, I find it hard to credit Stalin and the Politburo for the defense of democracy as that wasn’t their goal, nor was it a project that they carried out particularly well. PS: There are plenty of members of the Left who are smart enough to vote for Harris. Hell, I suspect most of them are. Antifa activist Talia Lavin is one. Most Leftists are not tankies. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/97 "2024-10-22T13:27:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But modern Russia is fascist, _not_ communist regardless of the lies the Russophile portions of the far left tell themselves. So that still wouldn’t result in a leftist dictatorship but a right wing one. There’s a far left Reddit I sometimes read (it’s not directly a political Reddit) that banned all discussion of the invasion in Ukraine because members were attacking one another. There was a contingent who hated Putin and his naked aggression and thought it was good idea to help the Ukranians. The other side thought NATO was the most evil thing since sliced bread and blamed it and the United States for pushing Russia into war. Both sides were really lighting into one another until the moderators banned all discussion on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/98 "2024-10-22T14:39:19Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > There’s a far left Reddit I sometimes read (it’s not directly a political Reddit) that banned all discussion of the invasion in Ukraine because members were attacking one another. There was a contingent who hated Putin and his naked aggression and thought it was good idea to help the Ukranians. The other side thought NATO was the most evil thing since sliced bread and blamed it and the United States for pushing Russia into war. Both sides were really lighting into one another until the moderators banned all discussion on the subject. Sounds a lot like the Green Party. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/99 "2024-10-22T19:26:30Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > There’s a far left Reddit I sometimes read (it’s not directly a political Reddit) that banned all discussion of the invasion in Ukraine because members were attacking one another. There was a contingent who hated Putin and his naked aggression and thought it was good idea to help the Ukranians. The other side thought NATO was the most evil thing since sliced bread and blamed it and the United States for pushing Russia into war. Both sides were really lighting into one another until the moderators banned all discussion on the subject. On a left-leaning forum I used to be on they ended up having to repeatedly infract people who were calling for the genocide of Ukriainians, called them fascists and Nazis and supported the invasion in the name of “the Left” while ignoring how un-Left the Russians are. Some were pretty clearly just anti-American/anti-Western; many didn’t even bother to pretend otherwise. But there appears to be a significant number who are essentially ideologically driven crypto-Russian nationalists, who have so absorbed the idea that Russia = Communism that they support everything Russia does in the name of Communism while ignoring that modern Russia is anything but. Probably in part a leftover of how the USSR managed to effectively take over the international Communist movement and turn it into an extension of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/100 "2024-10-23T12:09:35Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Sounds a lot like the Green Party. I think I am even further away from understanding your support for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920.md?page=6)