# How to Explain that the Democracy Crisis Transcends Principle **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** kamala-harris\ **Created:** [October 17, 2024, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920 "2024-10-17T14:29:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/101 "2024-10-23T15:03:04Z")
“Supporting the Green Party” is, to me, a lot like “Supporting the Straight Dope Message Board”. Both of them are places where I interact with other opinionated thoughtful people, expressing my own opinion, sometimes banging out something akin to a consensus, other times remaining in disagreement. Unlike the SDMB, the Greens involve themselves in trying to have an impact on the surrounding community, to draw attention to the ideas we agree on. Both of them do elicit the occasional eyeroll from me. In both environments I elicit my own share of eyerolls from other participants. I was once a participant in MoveOn, the Democratic Party / Left Activist group that had some similarities but found myself facing a downhill waterfall of concepts and perspectives and ideas being poured from above, with very little openness to discussion amongst ourselves of ideas that the participants hadn’t already heard and knew to have been embraced by the Left in general. I’m not saying that kind of close-mindedness to new ideas doesn’t exist among the local, state, and national Greens (it does), or that it doesn’t exist here (likewise), but it was more pervasive within MoveOn, so I drifted away. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/102 "2024-10-23T15:41:23Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > but it was more pervasive within MoveOn, so I drifted away Missed opportunity to say “…more pervasive with MoveOn, so I eventually did just that.” ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/103 "2024-10-23T15:45:41Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > At some point you’ve simply got to decide when it’s best to cut bait or keep fishing. The great myth of communication is that by using the right magical words you can get through to anyone. You can’t. I agree with this. I’d add it’s much more about emotions and how they feel about the communicator. To address the OP: If your friend wants to continue to be able to vote for candidates like Cornell West, she should vote for Harris in this election. Trump’s stated intent is to rig the system/future election to stamp out all competitors and only Harris has a realistic chance to beat him in this election. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/104 "2024-10-23T21:29:37Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > “Supporting the Green Party” is, to me, a lot like “Supporting the Straight Dope Message Board”. Both of them are places where I interact with other opinionated thoughtful people, expressing my own opinion, sometimes banging out something akin to a consensus, other times remaining in disagreement. Unlike the SDMB, the Greens involve themselves in trying to have an impact on the surrounding community, to draw attention to the ideas we agree on. That sounds like a good way to pick a book club, or a message board. But a political party? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/105 "2024-10-23T21:42:09Z")
The Greens do a terrible job of organizing outside of Presidential election years when they side with Putin and Republican Party big money donors. I basically never hear them advocate for ranked choice voting. It’s all performative. Their most famous and successful alumni is Christine Sinema. They were more interesting during the 1990s, before they handed the election to GW Bush in 2000. Actual leftists should consider joining the DSA, who understand what being a spoiler is and support progressive policies. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/106 "2024-10-23T23:57:02Z")
This came up on my Twitter and it sums up the greens pretty well: > > > Jason Call 🇵🇸 CM Stein/Ware24: Unbreakable @CallForCongress I assumed this was just a random BernieOrBust bro when I first read it, but no it’s Jill Stein’s bloody campaign manager. Like he works for a third party! If you wanted an alternative to those candidates they could have run one. But no, much better to make a pointless Twitter statement while your boss accepts Putins money and David Duke’s endorsement, and help Netenyahu’s fascist buddy become POTUS. That will help the people of Palestine 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/107 "2024-10-24T00:35:42Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Like he works for a third party! If you wanted an alternative to those candidates they could have run one. You presume that the green party is a real party, rather than a Russian useful tool. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/108 "2024-10-24T00:40:29Z")
Any truth to the cynical claim by some that (successful) political parties are really just Election Winning machines, and that policy is a secondary concern mainly the province of lobbies? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/109 "2024-10-24T00:51:22Z")
That’s a dangerous belief that leads to people supporting openly awful people - like for example Trump - under the theory that “Oh come on, they won’t _really_ do what they are saying, it’s all just talk to get elected”. Heck, for years that’s how the ever-increasing extremism of the Republicans was downplayed, that it was all an act and they’d never _do_ the things they claimed to support. Recall how we were told again and again how they’d never _really_ bring down Roe _vrs_ Wade because it was all a ruse to get elected? Yeah, about that… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/110 "2024-10-24T04:32:56Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Any truth to the cynical claim by some that (successful) political parties are really just Election Winning machines, and that policy is a secondary concern mainly the province of lobbies? There’s some truth to this: the Green Party is exceptionally good at losing elections for example: it’s their core strength. Also, successful parties win elections. As for policy, parties are coalitions. The Dems took a hit when they passed Obamacare: some swing district House members lost their seats. Interviewed later, they said it was worth it. In the early 1990s George Mitchell turned down a Supreme Court nomination, because he thought shepherding health care reform through the Senate was that important. On the Republican side, tax cuts for plutocrats aren’t especially popular, but their donor class is committed to them, so that’s what they do. Other than that, the GOP policy apparatus has collapsed, at least relative to the 1990s and earlier. It’s all communications now. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/111 "2024-10-24T06:17:36Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > > > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > > > > > No. OP’s friend and you and the Greens in NY are WRONG. Morally wrong. > > > > > > The fact is we have three choices. Harris, Trump, or don’t vote/third party vote. We have limited choices often in life, and we make the best ones. > > > > > > Voting third party in a case where there is clearly a better choice between the top two candidates is wrong. In all states, not just swing states. ⁢ > > > > I think it’s even worse. > > > > If Harris wins a narrow majority, in both the Electoral College and the popular vote, ignoring the House and Senate, then; > > Nothing changes for conservatives. > > Nothing changes for Republicans. ⁢ > > Folks: I live in New York and they only let me vote once. > > By the logic I keep seeing expressed in this thread, I am “throwing my vote away” if I vote for Harris. Because she’s going to carry NY and my vote won’t make any difference. > > Oh, is that a misconstrual of what folks were saying? Is it only “throwing my vote away” if I vote for someone who _won’t_ win my state? > > It’s not a protest vote when you vote for the candidate you think is the best candidate. It’s a vote, period. > > Each of us who has the franchise gets to weild it according to our own sense of responsibility. Not that I’m particularly happy to be living in a world where “pick which of these two twits you want to make all other decisions on your behalf until next time” is considered democracy, but I’m going to use what I’ve got. > > And yes, if I were a resident of Arizona or Georgia I might weigh things differently, but I’m still the person who gets to weigh them. ⁢ No, voting for Kamala would not be throwing away your vote. It is an action that will contribute, no matter how small, to Kamala Harris winning and Donald Trump losing. The reason a third party vote would be thrown away is that it doesn’t even do the minimal part of trying to stop Trump. And, if you believe what Trump supports is wrong, then you have a moral obligation to try and stop him. Sure, you get to decide how you vote. But so does a MAGA supporter. It doesn’t mean I won’t tell you that you’re wrong, or see it as a betrayal to the various groups you could be helping. The Green party is smoke and mirrors, as far as I’m concerned. Jill Stein chose to push a platform of things she could not do if she were to win. Like literally impossible. As long as she’s on the top of the ticket, I don’t believe that the Greens care about any of the stuff they claim to care about. They actively were bragging about possibly preventing a Democratic majority in Michigan. What happens if they do that? Trump wins. So they are, in effect, actively fighting for Trump to win. Sure, they won’t win because of your vote. But you’re still supporting them. You’re still using that little bit of power to support people whose intend is to cause bad things–despite what they say. I wouldn’t tell a New Yorker it’s okay to vote Republican, even though Democrats will almost certainly win the state. And I won’t tell them it’s okay to vote Green, for what is largely the same reason. You do not vote for who you want to win in a Democracy. You vote against who you want to lose. Any other votes are dangerous game, while accomplishing nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/112 "2024-10-29T18:43:06Z")
Well, in a last ditch effort to convince my communist-ish friend, [I sent her this Bernie Sanders Youtube video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf5MThSniiY) She responded with “I could never vote for any genocider (either of them).” So, that’s it, I’m done. We live in interesting times. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/113 "2024-10-29T18:58:00Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > She responded with “I could never vote for any genocider (either of them).” So she will vote for Putin’s pal Jill, and feel smugly morally superior to everyone else. Hooray! ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2024, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/114 "2024-10-30T14:08:15Z")
I have a very good friend I’ve known for nearly 40 years. She was a ‘Bernie Bro (Gal)’ in 2016. I became worried in the summer of 2016. Trump might pull it off. I talked to her about it. SHE said, nah, the women of America won’t let that happen. Umm… You’re one of them. Protest votes are fine IF the two leading candidates are respectable people. We had one, and the other was/is well, we know. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/115 "2024-11-01T16:24:41Z")
**“How to Explain that the Democracy Crisis Transcends Principle?”** Members of Green parties across Europe try to do exactly that: > **[Europe’s Greens ask Jill Stein to pull out of US election to prevent Trump...](https://www.politico.eu/article/europes-greens-tell-jill-stein-to-pull-out-of-us-election-to-defeat-trump/)** > > “The race for the White House is too close for comfort,” write parties from around Europe, calling on Stein to throw her support behind Democrat Kamala Harris. Since the US Green party is far more of a Putinist stooge spoiler than a real political party aligned with any of those parties, I expect these pleas to fall on deaf ears. From the article: > [@](#): > > Friday’s statement from the European Greens highlighted the “divergent values and policies” of the European and U.S. Greens, noting “there is no link between the two as the US Greens are no longer a member of the global organization of Green parties.” > > The statement attributes the “fissure” to the American party’s “relationship with parties with authoritarian leaders, and serious policy differences on key issues including Russia’s full scale assault on Ukraine.” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/116 "2024-11-01T16:38:16Z")
One does wonder if there’s an underlying sense that it’s not that bad if we get someone we can _openly_ fight against on all issues. Or that the country/world _deserves_ to experience real opression if that’s what it takes for the people to rise. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/117 "2024-11-01T16:39:37Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > One does wonder if there’s an underlying sense that it’s not that bad if we get someone we can _openly_ fight against on all issues. Or that the country/world _deserves_ to experience real opression if that’s what it takes for the people to rise Quite so: > [@](#): > > Accelerationism is a range of revolutionary and reactionary ideas in left-wing and right-wing ideologies that call for the drastic intensification of capitalist growth, technological change, infrastructure sabotage and other processes of social change to destabilize existing systems and create radical social transformations, otherwise referred to as “acceleration” ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/118 "2024-11-01T16:40:23Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So she will vote for Putin’s pal Jill, and feel smugly morally superior to everyone else. Hooray! Actually, the only candidate she spoke about voting for was Cornel West. Although the last time we spoke, she did seem to be wavering on that position. Perhaps she’ll just not vote. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/119 "2024-11-01T16:42:27Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Actually, the only candidate she spoke about voting for was Cornel West. Ahh, putting your vote in the recycle bin instead of the trash can. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Although the last time we spoke, she did seem to be wavering on that position. That’s good news! > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Perhaps she’ll just not vote. That’s precisely equivalent in value to voting for West or Stein, so that works out. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920/120 "2024-11-01T19:56:21Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > One does wonder if there’s an underlying sense that it’s not that bad if we get someone we can _openly_ fight against on all issues. Or that the country/world _deserves_ to experience real opression if that’s what it takes for the people to rise. “After Hitler, us.” - the German socialists, who died in the concentration camps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-explain-that-the-democracy-crisis-transcends-principle/1008920.md?page=7)