# How to get to Heaven according to the Bible: By faith alone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549 "2003-07-19T05:08:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![johnny\_miles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/65b543/32.png) [@johnny\_miles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnny_miles)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/1 "2003-07-19T05:08:20Z")
I would like to know if anyone can use Bible verses to prove that to get to “saved” you must do more than have faith alone in Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/2 "2003-07-19T05:14:24Z")
Ps.62:12 “For you render to each one according to his works.” Jer.17:10 “I the Lord … give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” Mt.12:37 “For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” Mt.16:27 “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Mt.19:17 “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Jn.5:29 “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” Rom.2:6, 13 “Who ‘will render to each one according to his deeds’. For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.” 2 Cor.5:10 “For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” 2 Cor.11:15 “Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” Jas.2:14 “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?” Jas.2:17 “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” Jas.2:21-25 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” 1 Pet.1:17 “The Father, who without pariality judges according to each one’s work.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/3 "2003-07-19T05:14:44Z")
Well, whatever Paul may have speculated, Jesus said that the decision would be thus: > [@](#): > > Matthew 25 > 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: > 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: > 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. > 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: > 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: > 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. > 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? > 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? > 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? > 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. > 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: > 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: > 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. > 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? > 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. > 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ---
**Author:** ![johnny\_miles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/65b543/32.png) [@johnny\_miles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnny_miles)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/4 "2003-07-19T05:53:32Z")
Those are fantastic verses. Check these out. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Now, I know that the people being judged here is at issue for some. Some say it is not all mankind, but only unbelievers. I will not address that in this thread. Let us just assume , for the sake of truth, that this does refer to all people being judged by their “works.” Now check these out. John 6:28,29 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Do these two verses say that belief in Jesus constitutes “works of God?” Is it therefore possible that to be judged by works will include whether or not you have done the “work of God”, to “believe in the one he has sent?” So, in fact, are we judged on whether or not we have faith in Jesus, and not in “physical works” alone? If not, how can these verses be explained– Ephesians 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourseves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/5 "2003-07-19T06:14:51Z")
johnny miles: _If not, how can these verses be explained_ Self deception and denial.🙂 All kidding aside, I explain it by saying that A) the bible isn’t true and 2) if there is a god, (which I doubt) he sure isn’t Christian, and probably wouldn’t even like those gullible S.O.Bs. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/6 "2003-07-19T06:19:24Z")
Now _this_ is an interesting point: > [@](#): > > Ephesians 2:8,9 > For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourseves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast. Note that it is neither faith nor works that saves: it is Grace. So people wandering about claiming that they will be saved by faith are deluding themselves. Now, the second point that Paul makes is also worth noting. His point is that no one “earns” salvation–it is _given_ through Grace and that is not something that one can go out and accomplish through one’s own efforts. So what does the “through faith” mean? Well, Paul lays it out pretty clearly that it is also a gift from God. So having it or not having faith is pretty much up to God’s discretion, and is not something that a person can do on their own. In other words, rather than contrasting faith and works, Paul is noting that _all_ aspects of salvation are gifts of God. One cannot go out and “work” one’s way into heaven in despite of God, but neither can one “believe” their way into heaven in despite of God. All the terrible imprecations hurled about, accusing people (falsely) of trying to be “saved by works,” are even more silly if the accuser actually believes that they will be saved by the “effort” of their own faith. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/7 "2003-07-19T06:44:03Z")
**Luke 10:25-28** 25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. “How do you read it?” 27He answered: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[3] ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[4] " 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” “Do this and you will live.” Love God and love your neighbor. That’s all it takes. I think the parable of the sheep and the goats also makes those two commandments synonomous, so really all you have to do is love your neighbor. If that contradicts Paul…well…who are you going to believe, Jesus or Paul? ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/8 "2003-07-19T06:49:32Z")
tomndebb _Now, the second point that Paul makes is also worth noting. His point is that no one “earns” salvation–it is given through Grace and that is not something that one can go out and accomplish through one’s own efforts._ Do you think Paul is correct in providing the word of god here Tom? ---
**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/9 "2003-07-19T06:51:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by johnny miles \* > \*\*I would like to know if anyone can use Bible verses to prove that to get to “saved” you must do more than have faith alone in Jesus Christ. \*\* You may find this comparison helpful: [http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html) . (All but one of the verses on the “Salvation is not by faith alone” side have already posted by badchad. Not sure why he left out the one from Luke.) The various authors of the Bible had conflicting views on “how to get to heaven”. Once you realize that, everything becomes much clearer. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/10 "2003-07-19T07:04:13Z")
_(All but one of the verses on the “Salvation is not by faith alone” side have already posted by badchad. Not sure why he left out the one from Luke.)_ I thought the Luke verse was weak.😉 ---
**Author:** ![johnny\_miles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/65b543/32.png) [@johnny\_miles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnny_miles)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/11 "2003-07-19T07:52:44Z")
I suppose i should have been more clear. It is the Bible that says that salvation is by grace, through faith. What I was hoping for is an attempt to show that works has something to do with salvation. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/12 "2003-07-19T08:03:56Z")
Diogenes the Cynic: _If that contradicts Paul…well…who are you going to believe, Jesus or Paul?_ Judging by most Christians here it depends on whose advice is more pleasing under a given circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/13 "2003-07-19T08:15:37Z")
Martin Luther’s great discovery: Romans 1:17 “The Just shall live by faith alone.” ---
**Author:** ![johnny\_miles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/65b543/32.png) [@johnny\_miles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnny_miles)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/14 "2003-07-19T08:21:43Z")
"Love God and love your neighbor. That’s all it takes. I think the parable of the sheep and the goats also makes those two commandments synonomous, so really all you have to do is love your neighbor. If that contradicts Paul…well…who are you going to believe, Jesus or Paul?" I choose to believe God’s Holy Word, which includes Jesus’ words and Paul’s, which never contradict ---
**Author:** ![Stemba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@Stemba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stemba)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/15 "2003-07-19T08:22:39Z")
I’m not one to get into religous debates (seeing as I’ve never spoken to God, but I have no doubt he exists, I really don’t know what to take at face value…) because noone really knows for sure (there are some 122 distinct versions of the Bible, including the “St. Mark of Elan” version which omits John 3:16 ((I have that one, it’s a hoot!))) because the Bible has been tinkered with and should be seen more as a comprendium than an actual work… Anyway, to bring myself back on track, I think Robert Heinlein said pointed out the sad truth when he uttered “A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain - then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?” My own draw on it is that God will judge a man by the purity of his heart and the ability of his soul. One act will not damn you to an eternity in hell, and one moments grace will not save you from a life time of wicked acts. Do good, believe, and you really can’t go wrong? Plus, ain’t it fun to do good works? Makes you all warm inside. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/16 "2003-07-19T15:36:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I choose to believe God’s Holy Word, which includes Jesus’ words and Paul’s, which never contradict Then I’m sure you will have no problem explaining all the verses that **badchad** posted which contradict your “faith alone” doctrine. Please enlighten us with your wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/17 "2003-07-19T15:42:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you think Paul is correct in providing the word of god here Tom? I’m not sure what you mean by your phrasing, but I believe that salvation, as life, itself, is a gift from God extended to all. * * * > [@](#): > > I suppose i should have been more clear. It is the Bible that says that salvation is by grace, through faith. What I was hoping for is an attempt to show that works has something to do with salvation. You seem to be making the false assertion that there is some group that teaches that “works” gets one into heaven. Since there is no such group of which I am aware, I think you’re going to be hard pressed to get a discussion going. There _is_ a teaching (generally misconstrued by people pointing fingers at other groups) that the _response_ of faith is in action. Matthew’s passage is very clear that the judgement is based on actions, not claims of belief. The actions, however, are not efforts to “earn” salvation, but a response to God. This is why Paul, in the much ignored Chapter 2 of Romans, makes the point of the different ways that God will assess people of different beliefs. > [@](#): > > 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; > 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. > 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: > 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) > 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. People who want to set up a false picture of “salvation by Faith” (rather than the actual Salvation by Grace), pretend that Paul did not make the quite clear case in verses 14 and 15 that God is going to judge based on the heart. (Or they make the fairly specious claim that God will judge on the heart–and then pack off all the unbelievers to Hell anyway in an act that would make God more unjust than the typical two-year-old.) ---
**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/18 "2003-07-19T17:10:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by johnny miles \* > \*\*I choose to believe God’s Holy Word, which includes Jesus’ words and Paul’s, which never contradict \*\* The following articles contain quite a few Bible verses for you to consider: [http://members.aol.com/chas1222/bepart61.html#ref610](http://members.aol.com/chas1222/bepart61.html#ref610) (_…many biblical verses show that faith is either unnecessary or useless without works._) [http://members.aol.com/chas1222/bepart61.html#ref613](http://members.aol.com/chas1222/bepart61.html#ref613) (_…although a very strong case can be made in favor of works, an equally strong argument can be made in favor of faith._) [http://members.aol.com/chas1222/bepart61.html#ref618](http://members.aol.com/chas1222/bepart61.html#ref618) (_…all those verses that say you are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but do not automatically exclude other avenues._) All three articles are from Dennis McKinsey’s “Biblical Errancy”, [http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/](http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/) . Robert Green Ingersoll (19th century freethinker) wrote an interesting, if somewhat dated, essay on “How To Be Saved” in 1880: [http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert\_ingersoll/how\_to\_be\_saved.html](http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/how_to_be_saved.html) . (_If a certain belief is necessary to insure the salvation of the soul, the church ought to explain, and without any unnecessary delay, why such an infinitely important fact was utterly ignored by Matthew, Mark and Luke._) ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/19 "2003-07-19T17:28:36Z")
Hey, I just posted this in the BBQ area. Faith does produce works, and if they didn’t, you have no faith. Faith in God will make anyone act different. Not only that, but faith is believing God when he says something. But I’ll get back to this. The rich young ruler needed to know that he needed to be saved. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. So when someone says “What must _I_ do to be saved” I believe they don’t really they’ve done anything that would require them to be saved from, and he was relying on his works. When Jesus preached law, that was to show him that he was a sinner. The law is a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ, and it is also a mirror to show the state we are in. If this man had a humble spirit, it would have been more like John 3 where then Jesus said that you needed to believe in Him to be saved. Different people, same principal, Law vs Grace. Faith in God’s word, also requires us to follow what God says. The whole law is summed up in love the LORD your God, and love your neighbour. Now if my wife says she loves me, and runs off with other guys, then does she really love me? Her actions/works will show that love. But also if she really loves me, it won’t be a struggle for her to not run off, nor would it be for me not to. The works are not out of having to prove the love, but out of having the love in the first place. That is why your works will show your faith. You are saved unto good works, not because of them. ---
**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/20 "2003-07-19T17:56:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*Faith in God’s word, also requires us to follow what God says. \*\* True. According to some parts of the Bible, anyway… [http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/sin.html](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/sin.html) (\*Do Christians sin? “There is no man that sinneth not.” vs. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” \*) Let me ask you this: Do _true_ Christians sin? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549.md?page=2)