# How to get to Heaven according to the Bible: By faith alone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549 "2003-07-19T05:08:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/101 "2003-07-23T02:24:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Could you directly answer my question about the Jews who died in the holocaust? Are they in Hell right now? Does that sound like a loving God to you? \*\* Last chance, Svt4Him. No more weaselling. Yes or no: are the Jews (and, for that matter, gypsies and homosexuals) who died in the Holocaust in hell right now? ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/102 "2003-07-23T02:35:53Z")
How on earth would I know? If they believed in Jesus, yes, if not, then if they never sinned, yes, but if not believe in Jesus, and they sin, then yes, the wages of sin is death. Not only that, but if they died feeding a homeless child, and they never knew Jesus, then they had no way of covering their sins. With Jesus there is life, without the wrath of God. So do I think there were Jews who believed in Jesus? Yes. Did all? I would doubt that, but I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/103 "2003-07-23T02:43:57Z")
Does it bother you then that your God is evil? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/104 "2003-07-23T03:19:41Z")
BTW, I highly doubt that many, if any of the Jews who died in the holocaust believed in Jesus. It was against their religion. Let me rephrase the harsh question in my last post: Does it seem right or just to you that basically good and innocent people would be tortured forever by a merciless God? What about the children? Are they frying too? That sounds justifiable to you? I have to say, that is not a God that I can have any respect for. that God is not good and the only moral choice I could make with such a God is to denounce him and try to bring more good into the universe than he does. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/105 "2003-07-23T03:30:00Z")
Well, I think I already said what I believed about children. Now Diogenes, I’ve been reading your link regarding Josh McDowell, and I’ve already found errors in it, which kind of get me wondering. For instance: think it is most likely that the original experience was a real, seizure-induced vision, or a psychosomatic effect produced by guilt, because the author of Acts gives the first account as narrative, but the other two are Paul’s speeches and thus affected by their need to persuade a particular audience. Thus, the second two accounts contradict the first by claiming his attendants saw the light but did not hear the voice (cf. Acts 22.9, the exact opposite of 9.3-8), and the third account is suspiciously elaborated (26.13-19), Now just before this, they use the Greek that Paul used, so they are obviously aware that it was written in a different language. This is interesting to me, as I had this exact same discussion with another person, who said it was a contradiction. Now I can understand the person I was talking to not understanding, but this site just posted the Greek, and in the Greek, it isn’t a contradiction. For instance, if I say to my son, “Do you hear me” he may hear me, but he may not understand me, and that is what I’m asking. The Greek for this is similar. They heard, but they didn’t understand, and a quick look in any Greek translation or the NIV version shows this. So why then is this taken as facts? It does interest me when people use Greek only when it suits their purpose, but ignore the fact when it doesn’t. And what is a good person? Have you read anything I’ve posted earlier? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/106 "2003-07-23T03:45:48Z")
Svt4Him, here’s how it stands: Miriam was a saintly person by any rational standard, but committed petty sins. She was deeply devoted to God. She rejected Christianity _because_ of her devotion to God. In light of how Christianity was ineptly presented to her, Christianity seemed blasphemous. Is it just for her to go to hell? ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/107 "2003-07-23T04:44:09Z")
Ben, have you sinned? Have you ever done the petty sin of lying, no matter how small a lie it may be? And if so, what does that make you? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/108 "2003-07-23T05:02:11Z")
Stop dodging Ben’s question, Svt4Him. Answer his question. If you won’t answer his point blank question, why should anyone answer any of yours? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/109 "2003-07-23T05:02:11Z")
Human. Why are you so adamant about not answering plain yes-or-no questions? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/110 "2003-07-23T05:12:00Z")
**Acts 22:9** (transliterated from Greek) Oi de sun emoi ontes to men phos etheasanto ten de phone ouk ekousan tou lalountos moi. “Those who were with me saw the light but they did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me.” To me, this indicates that they didn’t hear the sound of the voice, not that they didn’t understand the words. The verb _akouein_ means “to hear” or “to listen.” I do not find “to understand” as a definition in my Oxford Greek Lexicon (which is massive). On the face of it I think it’s a clear contradiction, but it’s hardly the only point made in the crique that I linked to. Frankly, I find tautological arguments like McDowell’s insistence that the Bible is “unique” to be far more vulnerable than apologia for textual contradictions. My definition of a “good person” would be someone who is kind and has compassion for others. This person need not be perfect and I place no moral value whatever on religious beliefs or the lack of them. A good person may be a Christian or may not be. It makes no difference to me. How about Gandhi, for instance. An unrepentant Hindu. He knew about Christianity and even liked some of Jesus’ teachings but he never converted. He died a polytheistic heathen. He was a good person, though. Is he roasting now? Let’s forget even “good.” what about just your average Joe. He does some good things, he does some bad things but nothing really good or really bad. He cheats on his taxes but not on his wife. He never kills anyone. He give to charity sometimes but not all that often. He has petty weaknesses. He over-eats, he has lustful thoughts, he road rages. He also loves his wife and is a caring father. He used to go to church as a kid but has lost all interest as an adult. Now, do you believe that this man deserves eternal torture? Does he deserve the same punishment as Hitler? Does this seem fair to you? How can you reconcile this with a god who is good? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/111 "2003-07-23T05:17:47Z")
> [@](#): > > And if so, what does that make you? Well, in any theology that was not dominated by a rigid and unthinking formalism (in which verses were cherry picked for their worst possible presentation of God), it would make him a person who had made a mistake. With penitence or restitution, a merciful God would welcome him to paradise, barring a _serious_ effort to separate himself from that God. Offhand, I would have to say that Ben’s characterization that you worship a demon under the guise of the name of God is pretty accurate. I am really curious why your demon has chosen to condemn the vast majority of humanity to hell (since he _could_ have had Jesus show up earlier in history to redeem _everyone_ instead of waiting until most of the world was populated and then only showing up where most people would never hear about him for hundreds of years). You should read Mark Twain’s The Mysterious Stranger: he describes the god you worship quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/112 "2003-07-23T06:26:45Z")
You had your chance, Svt4Him. [The cock is crowing.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=199570) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*I don’t believe in atheists. \*\* And _still_ no explanation of this comment. ---
**Author:** ![NF124](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/46a35a/32.png) [@NF124](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NF124)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/113 "2003-07-23T07:41:59Z")
“Whatever happens in the end, God judges me for that. It’s” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*The abrupt end of the post made me chuckle, picturing a divine lightning strike. \*\* I don’t know what made me end like that but I’m still alive… yes, it does seem kind of funny now. “It took me awhile to figure out if this site was just a joke or not.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*What did you conclude? I assumed it was serious. \*\* The site itself is serious; the one who made the site is a joke. Not that I don’t respect other people’s beliefs, but wtf is the purpose of that site…? It does a better job leading people away from God. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/114 "2003-07-23T08:13:02Z")
So do most people who try to witness using “REPENT OR DIE, HEATHEN!” as their main calling card rather than “God loves you”. But don’t try telling them that. They’ll accuse you of watering down the scriptures etc. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/115 "2003-07-23T11:00:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*I don’t believe in atheists. > > As for the Jewish lady, I’m a bit confused. She believes in the old testament where God gives the law, and tells what will happen when someone breaks the law? Or does she just believe in the blessings of the covenant without the curses? Has she kept His law? Has she never lied? Is she a good person? Maybe try this test, on her behalf right [_here_.](http://www.livingwaters.com/good/001.shtml) \*\* Um, I don’t know if you wrote it or not, but that test: A) Gets it’s biblical references _wrong_. WAY wrong. They \*misquote the Ten Commandments! B) Is completely retarded in it’s conclusions. On count A), _None_ of the Commandments prohibit “lying”. The commandment the test’s designers are trying to remember (inaccurately) is “Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” which is a prohibition against a very specific type of behavior and I think most of us would agree, giving false testimony in court about someone is wrong. But it’s _not_ a commandment not to ever lie any more than the adultery commandment isn’t a prohibition on all sex, even between married people. On count B), the test says > [@](#): > > Perhaps you think God is good and because of his goodness He will overlook your sins? > > But if you knew of a human judge who turned a blind eye to the crimes of a guilty rapist… would you describe him as a “good” judge? > > No. > > That would be a “corrupt” judge. > > He will punish all the rapists, murderers, and thieves… But he won’t stop there. He will also punish all liars, the lustful, adulterers, idolaters, and blasphemers. ## Well, first they got the “lying” thing wrong again, but beyond that, let’s look at the question again: Perhaps you think God is good and because of his goodness He will overlook your sins? But if you knew of a human judge who was unable to distinguish between a two year old who stole a toy from another two year old, and the crimes of a guilty adult serial rapist and punished them equally with torture, long _slow_ torture… would you describe him as a “good” judge? No. That would be a “psychotic” judge. He will punish all the rapists, murderers, and thieves… But he won’t stop there. He will also punish all liars, the lustful, adulterers, idolaters, and blasphemers…But he won’t stop therre. He will also murder and torture children, people who made a mistake and…well, just about anyone else. Including, one hopes, those who misrepresent the Ten Commandments. And **Svt4him** : I’m Jewish. I _do not_ accept Jesus as my personal savior and I do not believe he died on the cross for my sins and I have not accepted him into my heart…Am I hellbound or not? And no weaseling about “It’s not for me to judge…”…I’m asking you for your best guess. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/116 "2003-07-23T11:05:56Z")
**Svt4Him** , if you believe that faith in Christ is the only means one can avoid an eternity of unspeakable suffering, how do you account for the fact that the actions of people like you have driven people away from Christianity? I speak not only of **Ben** who I haven’t met, but people like **HJay** , a very dear real life friend who is a Presbyterian, turned Fundamentalist Christian, turned Atheist, turned Wiccan, and several other people I know in real life. You condemn such people? That’s what they expect from you and from me, because that is how Christians have treated them. They see no reason to join a faith which has shown them only contempt and cruelty. Frankly, I agree with them which is why I try to show them their is more to our faith than that and that even an outcast, wierdo like me can find powerful good and acceptance in a God who took the trouble to become fully human and be killed for taking an unpopular stand. Faith, too, is an act, or a work if you prefer. Is the man who lives a nice, comfortable life, marrying his high school sweetheart, having a prosperous career, raising his kids, seeing them marry, enjoying his grandkids, going to church on Sunday and professing faith in Jesus because that’s what everyone in his small town does truly a better Christian and a better human being than one who, faced with being helpless in the face of the death of family members, a lost job, a serious illness, questions the existence of a merciful God and ultimately loses faith? Would the first man I mentioned be worthy of hell because that church he attended, the same one his parents attended before him, was Catholic rather than some form of Protestant? I am, due to harsh experience, suspicious of people who wear their Christianity on their sleeves or in their user names. It seems to me that you feel a need to proclaim your faith with words because your deeds may not back it. There’s a hymn which hangs above my desk which reflects my attitude toward my faith. The last verse runs as follows: > [@](#): > > 'Til my life be Witness, > 'Til my deeds be Thine, > 'Til there is no more my will, > 'Til there’s only Thine, > 'Til I wear Thy cross > Not upon breast but on soul > 'Til my life reflects > The One Who made me whole. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/117 "2003-07-23T12:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > **Staale Nordlie - the story about the rich young ruler shows a characteristic of God that doesn’t change, and that is God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. When you picture the rich ruler, do you see him coming humbly or with pride? I believe that he came thinking there was nothing in his life that was wrong, and that is why he said “What must I do to be saved” as he has done enough to work himself into heaven.** A young man seeks out a famous religious leader, kneels in front of him, and asks him what he needs to do in order to be saved. To you this indicates that the young man thought that he was perfect. And this “interpretation” makes sense to you? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*I believe that he didn’t see the need for him to do anything else, which is why Jesus was using the law. Did He string him along? I don’t believe so. I believe Jesus was showing the ruler that money was his god, and by doing that, showed him that his works weren’t enough. \*\* In other words Jesus lied. If works aren’t enough it is _not true_ that “all” the young man needed to do in order to “enter into life” was to keep (some of) the commandments, sell his possessions and follow Jesus around. ---
**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/118 "2003-07-23T12:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > **A) Gets it’s biblical references _wrong_. WAY wrong. They _misquote the Ten Commandments!_** _Which_ ten commandments? ---
**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/119 "2003-07-23T15:04:10Z")
_“What a change has come over our pulpits,” Arthur remarked, “since the time when Paley gave that utterly selfish definition of virtue, ‘the doing good to mankind, in obedience to the will of God, and for the sake of everlasting happiness’!”_ … … … _Right and Wrong had somehow been transformed into Gain and Loss, and Religion had become a sort of commercial transaction._ … … … _“But is it not taught again and again in the Bible?” I ventured to ask. “Not in the Bible as a whole,” said Arthur. “In the Old Testament, no doubt, rewards and punishments are constantly appealed to as motives for action._ … … _That teaching is best for children, and the Israelites seem to have been, mentally, utter children. We guide our children thus, at first: but we appeal, as soon as possible, to their innate sense of Right and Wrong: and, when that stage is safely past, we appeal to the highest motive of all, the desire for likeness to, and union with, the Supreme Good._ _from_ CHAPTER 19. HOW TO MAKE A PHLIZZ. **SYLVIE and BRUNO** , by LEWIS CARROLL ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549/120 "2003-07-23T15:41:34Z")
As a minor note, I’d like to point out that when I lust after a woman, my heart’s only role is to pump more blood to where it’s needed. Thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-get-to-heaven-according-to-the-bible-by-faith-alone/189549.md?page=7)