# How to have light move faster than C **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 24, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160 "2014-02-24T21:53:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/242 "2014-02-28T13:39:59Z")
> [@mythoughts](#): > > I just received a reply from a scientist I shared both versions on the test explained in the first post of this thread (train and rotating version). > > He required the picture I made before I could grasp it, and took some days to think about it and has said that it looks like a solid paradox to him. Who is he? If you can’t go that far, what kind of scientist is he? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/243 "2014-02-28T15:00:31Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Here are some simple, common sense flaws in your arguments: > > Your rotating sensors experiment drawing describes objects in “almost the exactly the same location”. There is no such thing. Either they’re in the same location or they are not. If you do the math, taking the differences in location into consideration, the relativity math, and the experimental observations, work out. > > An aether rotating with the Earth is consistent with the observations in experiments of the constancy of lightspeed in a vacuum on Earth. But a universal aether rotating with the Earth is not consistent with the observations made of the rest of the universe, such as the movements of planets and moons. And neither is any conceived of gravity bound aether. We can observe the movements of the heavens with greate accuracy. These observations are consistent with a constant speed of light and with GR and SR, they are not consistent with any aether theory, except for the one that goes “The aether behaves in whichever manner necessary to account for the observations and I don’t need to describe what that behaviour is, it just is.” Read this. Respond in 5 sentences or less (for everyone’s benefit). ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/244 "2014-02-28T15:26:50Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > **HEY EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD I SERIOUSLY DISCOVERED SOMETHING AWESOME!** > … Awesome! I love Brian Greene; I have read both _The Fabric of the Cosmos_, and _The Elegant Universe_ a couple times each, and will probably read them both again at some point. I can totally see him being able to pull off a non-mathematics-centric program such as this, because both those books are basically exactly doing same. The problem, I think, for people like **mythoughts** who apparently have zero understanding of mathematics as a language, is that some mathematics comprehension is inherently required in order to grasp special relativity and the infinity to which it opens the door, even on an anecdotal level. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/245 "2014-02-28T15:30:48Z")
And just to be clear, I haven’t read more than a few words of any post **mythoughts** has made. I’m just assuming this is a person who wants some free physics instruction because they _just. don’t. get it._ ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/246 "2014-02-28T15:43:20Z")
> [@Dr\_Doom](#): > > I’m just assuming this is a person who wants some free physics instruction because they _just. don’t. get it._ Nope, it’s someone who wants to educate the world about the TRUTH because we _just. don’t. get it._ But he can’t do math. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/247 "2014-02-28T15:49:40Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But he can’t do math. And therefore, it’s not trustworthy, and we shouldn’t be allowed to use it either. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/248 "2014-02-28T15:56:12Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > And therefore, it’s not trustworthy, and we shouldn’t be allowed to use it either. Do you know who else used math? ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/249 "2014-02-28T16:05:55Z")
i think maybe it’s too much or maybe it’s not enough. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/250 "2014-02-28T16:13:17Z")
Sticking with the baby steps, we had this exchange: > [@Pasta](#): > > …do you agree that if you do assert [the constancy of the speed of light] then time dilation and length contraction are immediate consequences? If the answer is ‘no’, then I think we will need to understand our different conclusions here before making further progress. Your answer was ‘no’, so we need to understand our different conclusions here to make any further progress. Toward that… The ‘light clock’ argument is the classical way to demonstrate the above consequence. You say that this argument is “actually a disproof of the constancy of the speed of light mascaraing as proof of time dilation.” Can you explain this further? It is not obvious to me where the logic of the light clock thought-experiment breaks down. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/251 "2014-02-28T16:15:31Z")
> [@mythoughts](#): > > You see if Special Relativity is based on the assumption that every observer will experience light moving at C and does not explain how… > > And since the assumption is based on a statement that must be false, illogical. > The only way that could be if it explained how something not just counter intuitive but actually impossible can possibly be true, but SR does not address it. NO! This right here is the core of your problem. Special Relativity is based on the \*observation \*that every observer \*does \*experience light moving at C, irrespective of the velocity of the emitter and the observer. The \*how \*is irrelevant, given that the \*what \*is true. The universe does not seem to care whether or not you find it intuitive or not. \*Any \*theory of physics that is proposed after 1908 \*must \*have at its core the fact that all observers will measure light moving at C. Once you grasp that fact, you can start to understand Special Relativity. Leave General Relativity alone until you understand SR. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/252 "2014-02-28T16:26:27Z")
That’s already been pointed out a few times - I know I mentioned it once. It doesn’t seem to penetrate. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/253 "2014-02-28T16:37:32Z")
I realize these questions probably won’t get answered by mythougths any more than they have in the past, but for some reason banging my head against the message board is slightly less painful than banging it against the wall. \*\* Why is it so important to you that you prove relativity wrong?\*\* \*\* Why is it that you feel that your interpretation of the laws of physics are more informed than are those of the thousands of physicists out there who have studied for decades and the issue and actually can do the math?\*\* \*\* Do you think that you are the only person out of all of those brilliant minds who has considered the gedanken experiments you are proposing? \*\* Please don’t use the excuse that they would but they’re views are being suppressed by the scientific community. Just a few years ago some scientists made a huge splash by presenting experimental results that neutrinos seemed to move faster than light. As it happened they eventually discovered a glitch in their equipment, but until then their results were considered seriously (albeit skeptically), and no move was made to suppress them. Higher physics indicates that the universe works in unusual and highly unintuitive ways. There are several times that in thinking of these things I come up with something that seems contradictory. However my response to such wouldn’t be to come to the dope to prove that I was right and the entire physics community was wrong, it would be to come to the dope to have people who understand the subject much better than I do explain why I was wrong and how the theory handles my counter example. If their explanations went over my head I would either try to educate myself to a level that would allow me to follow their explanations or else just accept that there were things that were just over my head and that I was just going to have to accept. You need to accept that one can not be an expert in every field. Even the most brilliant rocket scientist goes to a doctor for a medical diagnosis. I am sure that you have other skills and areas of knowledge, but until you spend some time buckling down and learning mathematics, physics won’t be one of them. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/254 "2014-02-28T16:50:43Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I realize these questions probably won’t get answered by mythougths any more than they have in the past, but for some reason banging my head against the message board is slightly less painful than banging it against the wall. > > \*\* > Why is it so important to you that you prove relativity wrong?\*\* > \*\* > Why is it that you feel that your interpretation of the laws of physics are more informed than are those of the thousands of physicists out there who have studied for decades and the issue and actually can do the math?\*\* > > \*\* Do you think that you are the only person out of all of those brilliant minds who has considered the gedanken experiments you are proposing? \*\* > > . Whilst I share your frustration with mythoughts lack of debating, I think there’s a better question to ask him. (After all proving relativity wrong leads to a Nobel prize 🆒) Mythoughts, you propose thought experiments to overturn current scientific theory. Fair enough. But **although you have not done any of these experiments in real life, you confidently predict the results**. **How can you be sure your predictions are correct?!** ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/255 "2014-02-28T17:01:39Z")
> [@glee](#): > > But **although you have not done any of these experiments in real life, you confidently predict the results**. > **How can you be sure your predictions are correct?!** D’uh… he’s done the math. Wait, no… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/256 "2014-02-28T17:27:41Z")
[Relevant xkcd toon.](https://xkcd.com/675/) ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/257 "2014-02-28T17:49:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who is he? If you can’t go that far, what kind of scientist is he? [He lives in Canada. You wouldn’t know him.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=606625) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/258 "2014-02-28T18:07:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Relevant xkcd toon.](https://xkcd.com/675/) I wonder if the admins would let me buy a custom title for **mythoughts** , consisting of that link. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/259 "2014-02-28T18:30:28Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Do you know who else used math? Some guy at Stormfront who didn’t like SR cos Einstein’s a Jew? I know when I’m proving science wrong I like to know someone at Stormfront has my back. ---
**Author:** ![Kimble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimble/32/19185_2.png) [@Kimble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimble)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/260 "2014-02-28T18:47:45Z")
Now, now – let’s be fair. Stormfront moved that thread out of their Science forum before it hit double-digit replies. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160/261 "2014-02-28T19:21:25Z")
I am a therapist. I don’t know the math. I do know monomaniacal insistence that ‘my beliefs are true even in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence’ , eg “I understand the flaws in basic physics experiments better than any physics teacher that ever lived”, screaming walls of text with Great Big Letters, and similar phenomenon. Any yet you describe yourself as a physicist, who cannot do the math, and insist it is Very Important that we attend to your breakthrough! I can’t be arsed to look carefully at the timing of all your posts throughout this thread the and related ones, but I wonder if you are experiencing a decreased need for sleep, lots of great energy, or any other disturbances in your usual routines? Does the word \*grandiose \*suggest anything to you? Is there any significant mental illness in your biological family, or have you been using substances? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-have-light-move-faster-than-c/682160.md?page=14)