# How to increase the GDP rate to 4% **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676 "2017-05-29T22:53:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/1 "2017-05-29T22:53:34Z")
Our economy is based on consumption, the poor spend their money, while the rich sit on their money. There is also many more poor people than there are rich people. Instead of deregulating banks again how about we just increase minimum wage, so people who are working full time can actually have enough money left over after paying for bills, food, and gas. I’d rather have 250 million people start spending their money all across the states, compared to having a single family of multi billionaires receiving a multi million dollar tax cut so they can sit on all of it. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/2 "2017-05-29T22:59:56Z")
You mean the rate of GDP growth. The GDP rate is not a phrase that has sense. Unless you address the problems of the productivity, an economic program based only on the consumption focused redistribution will be a great failure. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/3 "2017-05-29T23:10:47Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Our economy is based on consumption, the poor spend their money, while the rich sit on their money. There is also many more poor people than there are rich people. Instead of deregulating banks again how about we just increase minimum wage, so people who are working full time can actually have enough money left over after paying for bills, food, and gas. > > I’d rather have 250 million people start spending their money all across the states, compared to having a single family of multi billionaires receiving a multi million dollar tax cut so they can sit on all of it. Do you imagine there’s any upper limit beyond which it would be unwise to increase minimum wage? Or if $15 is good is $30 better, and $100 even more better? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/4 "2017-05-29T23:18:51Z")
I think you mean GDP growth per year, not ‘rate’…whatever that means. I don’t see how increasing minimum wage gets us to 4% growth, however…sounds like perpetual motion machine logic. I mean, if we get 4% growth by increasing MW to, oh, say $20/hour, why not increase it to $40/hour and get 8% growth? Or $80 and get 16% growth?? :eek: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/5 "2017-05-29T23:28:25Z")
Oh, not that tired argument again… The problem with that argument about “why not increase the minimum wage” to a huge amount then? Is that it is an absurd argument with a pinch of straw man. What it is proposed does fit into the idea that there is an optimal level for an increase. [https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/the-minimum-wage-and-the-laws-of-economics/](https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/the-minimum-wage-and-the-laws-of-economics/) > [@](#): > > Does that mean completely ignoring the “laws” of supply and demand and setting the minimum at any level we want? Of course not. Workers may not be paid their “marginal product,” but there is some rough correlation between their pay and the value of their work (the great labor economist Richard Freeman gets at this by using the flat edge of the chalk to draw demand curves). **History teaches that moderate wage increases** \*\* — say, those including not much more than 10 percent of the work force in their sweep — have nothing like the job-loss effects that opponents claim (which isn’t to say “zero,” but the beneficiaries far outnumber those hurt by the policy).\*\* > > The larger points here are twofold. First, policy makers must be mindful not only of the quality of the people in the work force, but also of the quality of jobs they inhabit. And second, be very wary of those who use the “rules” of economics, particularly at the micro level, to tell you why we can’t enact a progressive policy change. More often than not, we won’t know the impact until we try it, and\*\* in the case of the minimum wage, we know that moderate increases have their intended effect.\*\* Of course in this case the OP needs to clarify or see that the minimum wage does help, but it has its limits. And it will not get as high as the OP is implying or the opponents of the increase usually ‘argue to the absurd’ about. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/6 "2017-05-29T23:37:06Z")
**Barack Obama** , do you have any idea how many “people who are working full time” only make the minimum wage? Some vague notion? A guess? Anything? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/7 "2017-05-29T23:47:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Oh, not that tired argument again… > > The problem with that argument about “why not increase the minimum wage” to a huge amount then? Is that it is an absurd argument with a pinch of straw man. What it is proposed does fit into the idea that there is an optimal level for an increase. > > [The Minimum Wage and the Laws of Economics - The New York Times](https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/the-minimum-wage-and-the-laws-of-economics/) > Of course in this case the OP needs to clarify or see that the minimum wage does help, but it has its limits. And it will not get as high as the OP is implying or the opponents of the increase usually ‘argue to the absurd’ about. Before jerking your knee then putting back in the major point about the OP, why not speak in terms of the OP…as I was? For instance, I notice that no where in your cite does it say that increasing the minimum wage will increase GDP to 4%…in fact it doesn’t address that at all it doesn’t appear. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/8 "2017-05-29T23:49:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > **Barack Obama** , do you have any idea how many “people who are working full time” only make the minimum wage? Some vague notion? A guess? Anything? How about the people who make just above minimum? They still won’t have much, if any, disposable income. And before demanding they move, remember the low paying jobs they do that are absolutely needed for society to function. Who runs the registers, mops floors, stocks shelves, picks up trash, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/9 "2017-05-29T23:53:17Z")
While I have learned from this board how much the Americans love to argue about the trivial policy that is the minimum wage, to return, the OP has tried although getting the term and the concept wrong to ask about I think the rate of the GDP growth. The idea of the consumption driven doubling or more of the GDP growth rate, it is a way to disaster. If the question is really the GDP growth rate. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/10 "2017-05-30T00:07:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Before jerking your knee then putting back in the major point about the OP, why not speak in terms of the OP…as I was? For instance, I notice that no where in your cite does it say that increasing the minimum wage will increase GDP to 4%…in fact it doesn’t address that at all it doesn’t appear. To clarify, it was mostly directed to what **HurricaneDitka** said. That bit about “Do you imagine there’s any upper limit beyond which it would be unwise to increase minimum wage? Or if $15 is good is $30 better, and $100 even more better?” **That** tired reductio ad absurdum argument. The OP seems to go in the other direction and so my comment for the OP to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/11 "2017-05-30T00:09:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > To clarify, it was mostly directed to what **HurricaneDitka** said. That bit about “Do you imagine there’s any upper limit beyond which it would be unwise to increase minimum wage? Or if $15 is good is $30 better, and $100 even more better?” **That** tired argument. The OP seems to go in the other direction and so my comment for the OP to clarify. :smack: Ah, my apologies then. I was only trying to make the point that increased MW doesn’t directly correlate to GDP growth per year, which seemed to be what the OP was getting at…I think. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/12 "2017-05-30T00:16:54Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I think you mean GDP growth per year, not ‘rate’…whatever that means. I don’t see how increasing minimum wage gets us to 4% growth, however…sounds like perpetual motion machine logic. I mean, if we get 4% growth by increasing MW to, oh, say $20/hour, why not increase it to $40/hour and get 8% growth? Or $80 and get 16% growth?? :eek: > > :smack: increase poor peoples tax credits. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/13 "2017-05-30T00:17:37Z")
I have to apologize too\*\* XT\*\*, because I also made a mess of the last line. I meant to say that: The OP seems to go in the **same** direction _but it is not clear by how much_ and so my comment for the OP to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/14 "2017-05-30T00:22:07Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have to apologize too\*\* XT\*\*, because I also made a mess of the last line. > > I meant to say that: The OP seems to go in the **same** direction _but it is not clear by how much_ and so my comment for the OP to clarify. 15 dollars would be the minimum, higher would be up to states. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/15 "2017-05-30T00:24:07Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > 15 dollars would be the minimum, higher would be up to states. Are you saying that you believe increasing the minimum wage to $15 would increase the GDP growth rate to 4%? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/16 "2017-05-30T00:26:12Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > 15 dollars would be the minimum, higher would be up to states. Why is $15 the minimum? ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/17 "2017-05-30T00:39:29Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why is $15 the minimum? Someone working 12 hours a day 7 days a week should be making at least close to a grand a week. As it is now, they’ll be making half that. The reality is people cannot live off minimum wage without income from some other source. Most people will lose their source of income due to lack of income. As gas prices get higher, as everything gets more expensive in general the regular joe will be forced to cut out so much of his personal life that his entire existence is devoted to making it to and from work, all while providing the necessities for him to survive and travel. This leaves no room for his quality of life, at this point some people would philosophize he’s a slave. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/18 "2017-05-30T00:47:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you saying that you believe increasing the minimum wage to $15 would increase the GDP growth rate to 4%? No, I’m saying giving a consumers the ability to consume more they will. It’s like feeding a fish, they’ll eat until they explode. So there does exist a problem on both sides of the scale, but I’m sure with reasonable people (who aren’t corperatists investing into big pharma then signign a bullshit healthcare bill to fill their own pockets) could figure out a balanced way of getting the poor a little more wealthy so they can in return help the middle class who are the ones benefiting the most from the poor having more money to spend more. Basically if we do things like increasing minimum wage, giving poor more tax credits, and actually covering basic survival needs like healthcare then the poor specifically will have more money so they’ll spend more. The poor will benefit as well as the people selling to the poor. That being the middle class, and when they sell more they can expand their businesses in return producing more, for more consumption. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/19 "2017-05-30T00:50:32Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Someone working 12 hours a day 7 days a week should be making at least close to a grand a week. As it is now, they’ll be making half that. > The reality is people cannot live off minimum wage without income from some other source. Most people will lose their source of income due to lack of income. As gas prices get higher, as everything gets more expensive in general the regular joe will be forced to cut out so much of his personal life that his entire existence is devoted to making it to and from work, all while providing the necessities for him to survive and travel. This leaves no room for his quality of life, at this point some people would philosophize he’s a slave. Most people on minimum wage are not supporting even themselves, let alone a family. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676/20 "2017-05-30T00:52:59Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Most people on minimum wage are not supporting even themselves, let alone a family. Which is why it should be raised. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-increase-the-gdp-rate-to-4/787676.md?page=2)