# How to make an Athiest believe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179 "2003-07-31T17:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/181 "2003-08-04T21:06:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*He didn’t contradict himself, he just clarified what he was after. X-slayer, you seem to have some sort of delusion that the atheists in this thread are trying to steal Motpott’s soul. If your belief in God is that strong, surely it shouldn’t bother you so much for him to get the whole picture. You should chill out - this is a forum for reasoned discourse, not to induct people into your religion. \*\* Lets put the shoe on the other foot then. What if the OP was a devoutly religious man having some doubts in the existance of God. All his life he was taught in the belief that God is everywhere at everytime. For some reason or another, he begins to question his core beliefs so he comes here to this forum to ask all atheists to positively prove there is no God. Then I come along, quoting scriptures and tell him to keep the faith and encourage him to seek his spiritual leaders guidance and to hold up on making decisions on what he has believed in for his entire life. I spout things like faith in the lord requires no proof, God loves and understands everyone, that it would be better if he believed and had no proof than to believe after seeing proof, yadda yadda yadda, all in the name of relevant information, you understand. Am I trying to save his soul? I daresay, hostilities and tensions in that thread would be downright palpable. Atheists here seem to be of a passionate sort. All the more amusing. It is both ironic and absurd. If God doesnt really exist, one more person believing in him isnt going to make him appear. Whats one more deluded person more or less? ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/182 "2003-08-04T21:40:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **That all brains are unique further support the life after death theme. Our brains are controlled by our spirit, so no two are alike.** I guess our fingerprints are controlled by our spirit, too, then. And the patterns of our irises and retinas. And our voices. And our handwriting. Etc, etc… Oh, and snowflakes must have spirits making them all different, too. ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/183 "2003-08-04T22:56:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*Lets put the shoe on the other foot then. What if the OP was a devoutly religious man having some doubts in the existance of God. All his life he was taught in the belief that God is everywhere at everytime. For some reason or another, he begins to question his core beliefs so he comes here to this forum to ask all atheists to positively prove there is no God. > > Then I come along, quoting scriptures and tell him to keep the faith and encourage him to seek his spiritual leaders guidance and to hold up on making decisions on what he has believed in for his entire life. I spout things like faith in the lord requires no proof, God loves and understands everyone, that it would be better if he believed and had no proof than to believe after seeing proof, yadda yadda yadda, all in the name of relevant information, you understand. > > Am I trying to save his soul? I daresay, hostilities and tensions in that thread would be downright palpable. Atheists here seem to be of a passionate sort. All the more amusing. It is both ironic and absurd. If God doesnt really exist, one more person believing in him isnt going to make him appear. Whats one more deluded person more or less? \*\* You are mistaken.The OP was not “doubting his doubt”.He was asking if there were some evidence he were unaware of…some rational justification which pointed towards the likelihood that God existed.He, like myself and any skeptic worth his/her salt, did not want to be drawing conclusions out of ignorance when such pertinent information was available. As for your last point about “passionate atheists”, let me clarify this by way of analogy. If someone came here asking how to obtain citizenship as an American and someone else responded “Go to the temple and pray for citizenship” then I would probably interject.I would not do so because I am passionate about immigration issues or have a hate-on for temples or any such nonsense but rather because “Go to the temple and pray”, I happen to know will not result in one being granted citizenship in America(praying may well make one feel better about his chances though ;D). We are not passionate about doubting any particular existential claim(how ridiculous).What many skeptics ARE passionate about is that fallacious reasoning, brainwashing, self-delusion etc., are not good, regardless of what they are being invoked to support. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/184 "2003-08-04T23:42:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic \* > \*\*You are mistaken.The OP was not “doubting his doubt”.He was asking if there were some evidence he were unaware of…some rational justification which pointed towards the likelihood that God existed.He, like myself and any skeptic worth his/her salt, did not want to be drawing conclusions out of ignorance when such pertinent information was available. > > \ > > We are not passionate about doubting any particular existential claim(how ridiculous).What many skeptics ARE passionate about is that fallacious reasoning, brainwashing, self-delusion etc., are not good, regardless of what they are being invoked to support. \*\* The OP is an atheist. He doubts the existance of God due to a lack of evidence of a God. If he is skeptical of that doubt (ie doubts his doubt) what would he do? He would explore the possibility of a God and how to believe in God with what he already knows. If he is secure in his doubt, he needs to do nothing more. Unless evidence presents itself there is no further need to go any deeper than where he is at right now. and it is awfully convenient for the skeptics to be the ones that define what constitutes as fallacious reasoning, brainwashing and self-delusion. Matters of faith and hope are irrelevant to any skeptic worth his/her salt. ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/185 "2003-08-05T00:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\* and it is awfully convenient for the skeptics to be the ones that define what constitutes as fallacious reasoning, brainwashing and self-delusion. Matters of faith and hope are irrelevant to any skeptic worth his/her salt. \*\* What part of ‘acting like you have faith till it feels like you really do’ isn’t self-dilusion to you? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/186 "2003-08-05T06:47:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > Lets put the shoe on the other foot then. What if the OP was a devoutly religious man having some doubts in the existance of God. All his life he was taught in the belief that God is everywhere at everytime. For some reason or another, he begins to question his core beliefs so he comes here to this forum to ask all atheists to positively prove there is no God. First of all, if such a thread were ever started here (which I seriously doubt), far and away the majority of the skeptics here would tell this person that they _cannot_ positively prove there is no God, because that is not what atheism entails. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god(s); it’s not a positive belief system. I know it makes you feel better about yourself to pretend it _is_, but that’s more about you than it is about atheism. > [@](#): > > Then I come along, quoting scriptures and tell him to keep the faith and encourage him to seek his spiritual leaders guidance and to hold up on making decisions on what he has believed in for his entire life. I spout things like faith in the lord requires no proof, God loves and understands everyone, that it would be better if he believed and had no proof than to believe after seeing proof, yadda yadda yadda, all in the name of relevant information, you understand. Happens all the time. What’s your point? > [@](#): > > Am I trying to save his soul? I daresay, hostilities and tensions in that thread would be downright palpable. Atheists here seem to be of a passionate sort. All the more amusing. It is both ironic and absurd. If God doesnt really exist, one more person believing in him isnt going to make him appear. Whats one more deluded person more or less? Well, the difference I see between the atheists in this forum and you is that rarely have I seen an atheist suggest that a theist “doesn’t belong in a thread”. They may engage the theist in argument, but rarely do any of them say “We’re discussing atheism; get out of here”, as seems to be _your_ attitude in this thread. Your mock amusement and condescension are out of place here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/187 "2003-08-05T13:12:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*Your mock amusement and condescension are out of place here. \*\* No fooling. Saying, “I am amused by your arguments” is a way to show contempt to your debating partners. Hardly a Christian attitude, IMO, and certainly not one fitting for a respectful debate between equals. Knock off the condescension, will ya, **Lekatt**? If a Christian came in with **Slayer’s** hypothetical question, sure, I’d tell him my experiences that led to my lack of belief in God – but I wouldn’t try to persuade him away from his faith. What, after all, difference does one more believer make to me? **NOBODY IS KEEPING SCORE!** Not in my belief, anyway. And if a Christian came into the thread and described how they’d made it through their own crisis of faith recently, I wouldn’t get my back up and tell them they’re hijacking the thread, certainly not; in fact, I’d consider their experiences to be a very important contribution to the thread. If you’re a certain kind of Christian, then believing the Truth is very important. But for a pomo atheist like myself, it’s completely unimportant to hold the “Correct” beliefs about nonfalsifiable phenomena. I maintain that people cannot genuinely choose their deepest beliefs, but rather they derive those beliefs from their experiences. I have a different set of experiences regarding nonfalsifiable phenomena (NP) than anyone else has, and so I have no way to declare my beliefs about NP more or less likely to be true than anyone else’s. If people find their lives enriched by their NP beliefs, I’m happy for them; if they find their lives impoverished by their NP beliefs, I’m sad for them. But I can only change those beliefs by pointing them toward evidence they may not have taken under consideration, and the only stake I have in changing those beliefs is a charitable stake in enriching their lives. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/188 "2003-08-05T13:35:21Z")
Thea at work and I were discussing this very topic this morning; we both kinda envy religious people in a way. I got up this morning a-brimmin’ with despair: I hate my job, I see nothing in my future but ever-decreasing health, money and job opportunities, and the world is (as ever) chock-a-block with disease, war, terrorism and horrible accidents. “I really envy religious people sometimes,” I told Thea over tea, as the work piled up in our in-boxes. “It must be so lovely and comforting to believe there’s some magical being in the sky who looks over you, and after you die, you’ll be whisked off into cloud cuckoo land.” “Yeah, I so wish I could believe in all that,” says Thea, “but it involves way too much suspension of disbelief.” ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/189 "2003-08-05T14:16:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\* Well, thats a pretty good rationale to just about hijack any thread on this board. > > OP: _I want the recipe for apple pie…_ > > Reply: Why the heck would you want to do that? Heres a recipe for peach cobbler instead. Its way better. Apple pies are dumb. > \*\* If an atheist asks how to believe in God, and I reply that there is no god, this does not mean that I am hijacking the thread. Perhaps this ‘apple pie’ analogy would better illustrate the point: OP: ‘I want a recipe on how to make an apple pie out of anchovies’ Reply(not a hijack): 'You can’t make an apple pie out of anchovies. Here is a recipe using apples" ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/190 "2003-08-05T17:18:30Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* quote: > > ## Originally posted by blowero Your mock amusement and condescension are out of place here. > > No fooling. Saying, “I am amused by your arguments” is a way to show contempt to your debating partners. Hardly a Christian attitude, IMO, and certainly not one fitting for a respectful debate between equals. Knock off the condescension, will ya, **Lekatt?** Yep. Just for the record, though - my comment was directed to X-Slayer, not Lekatt. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/191 "2003-08-05T18:19:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*Thea at work and I were discussing this very topic this morning; we both kinda envy religious people in a way. > > I got up this morning a-brimmin’ with despair: I hate my job, I see nothing in my future but ever-decreasing health, money and job opportunities, and the world is (as ever) chock-a-block with disease, war, terrorism and horrible accidents. “I really envy religious people sometimes,” I told Thea over tea, as the work piled up in our in-boxes. “It must be so lovely and comforting to believe there’s some magical being in the sky who looks over you, and after you die, you’ll be whisked off into cloud cuckoo land.” > > “Yeah, I so wish I could believe in all that,” says Thea, “but it involves way too much suspension of disbelief.” \*\* You don’t have to believe in God to change all those things, just believe in Love. Do affirmations or read self-help books. You don’t have to believe in God, but you do have to believe in yourself. Love ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/192 "2003-08-05T18:27:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*First of all, if such a thread were ever started here (which I seriously doubt), far and away the majority of the skeptics here would tell this person that they _cannot_ positively prove there is no God, because that is not what atheism entails. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god(s); it’s not a positive belief system. I know it makes you feel better about yourself to pretend it _is_, but that’s more about you than it is about atheism. \*\* You missed the point. It wouldnt matter what the atheist say or do in that thread example. The OP in that imaginnary thread called on those atheist to discuss that, thats what they are supposed to do. I, as a catholic, spouting scriptures and holier than thou platitudes would be at the wrong thread. If you ask for an atheists opinion, you should get one. There would be plenty of people in that thread telling me where to go in anatomically impossible places if I were to keep posting. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Well, the difference I see between the atheists in this forum and you is that rarely have I seen an atheist suggest that a theist “doesn’t belong in a thread”. They may engage the theist in argument, but rarely do any of them say “We’re discussing atheism; get out of here”, as seems to be _your_ attitude in this thread. Your mock amusement and condescension are out of place here. \*\* Puh-lease. I never once made that comment. The fact that this thread is already 4 pages long and built upon mostly our debate is proof that I never inteneded for any of the atheists here to leave. You must admit that our discussion and Daniels and Lekatts ongoing debate is lightyears away from the original thread’s question. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/193 "2003-08-05T18:41:13Z")
Hey **DanielWithrow** , What happened to this rule? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\ ***lekatt** , **x-slayer** , I am not so arrogant as to tell you how your minds work. Please return the favor; you’re certainly ignorant of how mine works, obnoxiously so. If you’re not willing to believe me when I tell you how my mind works, at least have the grace to keep your opinions on it to yourself. > > Daniel \*\* I backed off because you were uncomfortable with projecting how your mind works base on what you post on this thread. If you want to remove that rule, I can certainly continue with what I had started. If this rule is still in effect, dont be telling me what I was thinking or pronouncing my intentions based on what you felt after reading my post. Keep your issues with **Lekatt** with him and keep me out of it. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/194 "2003-08-05T18:50:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > Puh-lease. I never once made that comment. I didn’t say you made that comment. I said it seems to be your attitude. You accused us of highjacking the thread and of “religiously guarding our own”, couched in your sneering tone of “I find it funny…” It says more about your own myopic view than it does about anyone else in this thread: > [@](#): > > Its a bit of a hijack dont you think? The OP wanted some information and some people here post to stop him from looking for that information and actually give him the opposite information. > > I find it funny that certain atheists “religiously” guard their own. it brings up visions of atheists calling Heresy on a person thinking of believing in God. And as for this… > [@](#): > > The fact that this thread is already 4 pages long and built upon mostly our debate is proof that I never inteneded for any of the atheists here to leave. Yeah, 4 pages of YOU telling us we’re highjacking the thread, and us disagreeing with you.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/195 "2003-08-05T18:57:12Z")
> [@](#): > > You don’t have to believe in God to change all those things, just believe in Love. Do affirmations or read self-help books. You don’t have to believe in God, but you do have to believe in yourself. Leroy, my man! That’s a nice sentiment. You finally said something I can get behind.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/196 "2003-08-05T19:04:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*You don’t have to believe in God to change all those things, just believe in Love. Do affirmations or read self-help books. You don’t have to believe in God, but you do have to believe in yourself. > > Love \*\* I _do_ believe in myself—I believe I deserve a helluva lot better than a lousy job, no money, and a lingering death from cancer in another ten years. But all that’s not gonna make one damn bit of difference, no matter how many times I write “I’m gonna make a million dollars” on a piece of paper. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/197 "2003-08-05T19:13:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*I didn’t say you made that comment. I said it seems to be your attitude. You accused us of highjacking the thread and of “religiously guarding our own”, couched in your sneering tone of “I find it funny…” It says more about your own myopic view than it does about anyone else in this thread: > > And as for this… > > Yeah, 4 pages of YOU telling us we’re highjacking the thread, and us disagreeing with you.:rolleyes: \*\* You want an example of real sneering? look at your own words. myopic… sneering tone… attitude … accuse (?) you went down to using names and labels. I guess thats the end of any intelligent discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/198 "2003-08-05T19:58:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*Hey **DanielWithrow** , What happened to this rule? > > [quoting something I said awhile back] > > I backed off because you were uncomfortable with projecting how your mind works base on what you post on this thread. If you want to remove that rule, I can certainly continue with what I had started. > > If this rule is still in effect, dont be telling me what I was thinking or pronouncing my intentions based on what you felt after reading my post. Keep your issues with **Lekatt** with him and keep me out of it. \*\* I’m sure I haven’t the slightest idea what you’re talking about, **slayer**. You backed off AFTER I posted the text you quoted, and since then, I don’t think I’ve either lumped you and **lekatt** together or described the workings of your mind, erroneously or otherwise. Do you think that I’ve erroneously described how your mind works since you backed off? If so, point me to what you’re talking about; as it is, the post I quoted above just baffles me. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mottpot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Mottpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mottpot)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/199 "2003-08-05T23:41:22Z")
Well this has certainly turned into something interesting. I have enjoyed reading all responses and have taken a lot from it. I even printed this out to show to my friend. I can’t wait to see what he says. And for the record . . . . I’m a she 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/200 "2003-08-06T06:12:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > **I am an atheist who has met God _and remained an atheist_.** Just like this guy: [http://www.jhuger.com/mystic\_atheism.mv](http://www.jhuger.com/mystic_atheism.mv) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179.md?page=11)