# How to make an Athiest believe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179 "2003-07-31T17:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/221 "2003-08-09T02:52:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*Could you give me a cite for that? \*\* The Bible ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/222 "2003-08-09T03:14:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*I won’t comment on the fighter pilots, the story bears no relation to NDEs. > > To answer your last comment: NDEs happen to people when they least expect it. An accident, a heart attack, etc. The experience doesn’t “tell” anything, it shows you who you are and what you are doing here. You are surrounded by it, in it, you are it. Once you know, there is no returning to the way you were. It would be like trying to unlearn language or worse. > > But I don’t push it, believe what you will. > > Love > Leroy \*\* Please respond to the rest of my post instead of just adding your opinion. Your experiences cannot be independently remotely verified, and remain opinion until they can. Admit you were wrong about theories, etc. or provide new evidence to support your point. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/223 "2003-08-09T03:15:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*Science doesn’t claim that a theory is fact. > > Now, in the case of evolution, there are two seperate entities. One of these is the “theory of evolution”. The other is simply called “evolution” (or possibly the “fact of evolution”). They are not the same thing. Evolution has been observed to occur, and is accepted by the scientific community as fact. The _theory_ of evolution is the attempt to explain _how_ the observable fact of evolution works. People constantly confuse one for the other, or think that they’re both the same thing, and that’s where most of the confusion comes from. > > Also, it is worth noting that the term “evolution” refers simply to the change of allele frequencies in gene pools from one generation to the next. The whole “man evolved from earlier primates” is merely a logical extension of the very basic, observable fact of evolution as defined above. > > How do you propose to find the “truth”, then? Do you have an actual methodology? > > You’re assuming that direct observation is necessary to unserstand how something happened, and that is simply not the case. > > No one was around to observe the formation of the Grand Canyon, or the Himalayas. No one was around to witness the KT asteroid impact. Yet we still know how those things happened. > > As for the very first origins of life, true, we’re not 100% positive on that. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have some very good ideas on the subject, though. And after the origins, we’re pretty positive that we know the mechanism by which life evolved. \*\* Thanks Joe for a kind, informative post. I was not aware of the “two separate entities” of evolution. But the knowledge of this bothers me even more. Now evolution can be taught as fact in schools, meaning the observed evolution, while, in the by, giving credence to the Theory of Evolution. Reminds me of TV commercials. My main concern is that for some reason depression, anxiety, and suicides are growing at an alarming rate, according to the news. In the past spiritual practices helped curbed these problems somewhat. Discounting and laughing, ridiculing and fake debunking of spiritual practices push this option further away while offering nothing in return. Now, do I have a methodology of discovering truth. Yes, But I don’t know how to explain it to skeptics. Suffice it to say: “Ye shall know truth by its peace and calm.” Yoda. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/224 "2003-08-09T03:23:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **NDEs change people into kind, compassionate individuals who no longer wish to hurt anyone.** Considering that we’ve had people chime in with “NDE” stories, who do not fall into that grouping, it’s is blatantly obvious that this is incorrect. Since you’re back onto the topic of NDEs, care to answer my questions now?: 1. Is there any evidence that Pam Reynold’s mind didn’t create the dream-like memories while it was still opperating, or while “shutting down” or “starting up?” 2. Do you believe it is impossible for someone to dream of floating out of their body, looking down to see it, and conversing with a “being of light,” the same conditions that you have described as identifying NDEs? Your avoidance of answering these questions is rather telling. Could you simply answer them, here, in your own words? I’ve read through all the “documentation” you’ve presented, and saw nothing addressing either of these, so I’d appreciate it if you could set it straight, here. Thanks… ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/225 "2003-08-09T03:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*Oh, sorry, the judgement left for God who doesn’t judge part, not the whole thing… \*\* Jesus, after saving the prostitute, said, “Ye judge after the flesh, but I judge no man.” ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/226 "2003-08-09T03:28:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*Jesus, after saving the prostitute, said, “Ye judge after the flesh, but I judge no man.” \*\* Um that wasn’t what he was asking, you already said Jesus does not judge, but you made the claim that “god” does not judge, Svt4Him asked for a cite and you did not provide one. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/227 "2003-08-09T03:42:28Z")
Hi MEBuckner I won’t copy your long post, just to say I agree with the religionists when they say, “no one has known any creature to be anything other than what it is,” no one has observed man evolving from a lower species. The trail may point south, but it doesn’t go there, at least, not yet. To the others: many times I give answers that are not acceptible to posters, they may think I avoid them, or they may think I don’t know. But I do give answers, the ones I think are right. I am not obligated to answer any questions, and certainly not “what if” questions. I will continue to answer serious posts with questions that don’t answer themselves. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/228 "2003-08-09T03:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **I was not aware of the “two separate entities” of evolution. But the knowledge of this bothers me even more. Now evolution can be taught as fact in schools, meaning the observed evolution, while, in the by, giving credence to the Theory of Evolution.** It’s like that with everything is science, though. We can observe gravity affecting things, and there is also gravitational theory, which attempts to explain _how_ gravity works. In science, theories are considered _better_ than facts. Facts are merely observable things, after all. Anyone can observe stuff. It’s the theories that tie everything together and explain how things work, using observable facts as their groundwork. It’s probably the common usage of “theory = guess” that leads people to think that theories are somehow lacking when compared with facts. However, the scientific usage of the term “theory” is significantly different than common usage. “Guess” couldn’t be further from the reality of what a scientific theory is. Theories are the pinnacles of science. They are what science strives for. > [@](#): > > **My main concern is that for some reason depression, anxiety, and suicides are growing at an alarming rate, according to the news. In the past spiritual practices helped curbed these problems somewhat. Discounting and laughing, ridiculing and fake debunking of spiritual practices push this option further away while offering nothing in return.** Two issues here. One is the assumption that spiritual practices reduce the suicide rate. Is there any reason to link the two? It’s true that suicide rates have increased over the past century, but I don’t see any evidence that it has anything to do with a weakening of the “spirituality” of people. The other issue is that debunking spiritual practices offers nothing in return. I feel that it offers quite a bit in return. Knowledge, for one thing. Maybe that’s just part of who I am, though. I enjoy the persuit of knowledge, and if certain spiritual beliefs are demonstrated to be patently false because of that persuit, well, so be it. I still feel that I have gained more than I have lost. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/229 "2003-08-09T03:44:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryle Dup \* > \*\*Um that wasn’t what he was asking, you already said Jesus does not judge, but you made the claim that “god” does not judge, Svt4Him asked for a cite and you did not provide one. \*\* “if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.” ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/230 "2003-08-09T03:53:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*“if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.” \*\* Jesus was the son of god, AFAIK, therefore, _not_ god. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/231 "2003-08-09T03:55:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*It’s like that with everything is science, though. We can observe gravity affecting things, and there is also gravitational theory, which attempts to explain _how_ gravity works. > > In science, theories are considered _better_ than facts. Facts are merely observable things, after all. Anyone can observe stuff. It’s the theories that tie everything together and explain how things work, using observable facts as their groundwork. > > It’s probably the common usage of “theory = guess” that leads people to think that theories are somehow lacking when compared with facts. However, the scientific usage of the term “theory” is significantly different than common usage. “Guess” couldn’t be further from the reality of what a scientific theory is. > > Theories are the pinnacles of science. They are what science strives for. > > Two issues here. One is the assumption that spiritual practices reduce the suicide rate. Is there any reason to link the two? It’s true that suicide rates have increased over the past century, but I don’t see any evidence that it has anything to do with a weakening of the “spirituality” of people. > > The other issue is that debunking spiritual practices offers nothing in return. I feel that it offers quite a bit in return. Knowledge, for one thing. > > Maybe that’s just part of who I am, though. I enjoy the persuit of knowledge, and if certain spiritual beliefs are demonstrated to be patently false because of that persuit, well, so be it. I still feel that I have gained more than I have lost. \*\* [http://ndeweb.com/info01.htm](http://ndeweb.com/info01.htm) I mean spiritual practices, not religious doctrine, a big difference. There is actually more scientific proof now than ever before that the spirit world exists. I have not seen skeptics debunk any spiritual practices successfully. It is the skeptics that have no real proof. [http://www.ndeweb.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=65&post=730#POST730](http://www.ndeweb.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=65&post=730#POST730) Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/232 "2003-08-09T04:06:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*[http://ndeweb.com/info01.htm](http://ndeweb.com/info01.htm) > > I mean spiritual practices, not religious doctrine, a big difference. > > There is actually more scientific proof now than ever before that the spirit world exists. I have not seen skeptics debunk any spiritual practices successfully. It is the skeptics that have no real proof. > > [http://www.ndeweb.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=65&post=730#POST730](http://www.ndeweb.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=65&post=730#POST730) > > Love > Leroy \*\* Not this again… The burden of proof is on those who make the claims ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/233 "2003-08-09T04:09:17Z")
Thank you once again **lekatt** for showing us how **not** to make an atheist believe. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/234 "2003-08-09T04:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryle Dup \* > \*\*Jesus was the son of god, AFAIK, therefore, _not_ god. \*\* Mainstream Christian philosophy says Jesus was part of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and thus he was God. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/235 "2003-08-09T04:37:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **[http://ndeweb.com/info01.htm](http://ndeweb.com/info01.htm)** I hardly think that a study of spirituality among the terminally ill with less than three months to live is applicable to the population at large. > [@](#): > > **There is actually more scientific proof now than ever before that the spirit world exists. I have not seen skeptics debunk any spiritual practices successfully. It is the skeptics that have no real proof.** No, it is those who claim that the spirit world exists who have no real proof. Please show me some proof. > [@](#): > > **[http://www.ndeweb.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=65&post=730#POST730](http://www.ndeweb.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=65&post=730#POST730)** I responded to this link earlier in the thread. In a nutshell, that study only examines which factors determine whether or not a person experiences a NDE. The study in no way examines whether NDEs are or are not spiritual in nature. They mention that a spiritual cause for NDEs “should be discussed”. Those are the exact words used. No mention of whether a spiritual cause is even likely to be valid. Just that it should be discussed. I really have to wonder which part of that study you’re wanting us to look at, since none of it seems to help your case. Maybe I missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/236 "2003-08-09T04:49:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **To the others: many times I give answers that are not acceptible to posters, they may think I avoid them, or they may think I don’t know. But I do give answers, the ones I think are right.** You haven’t answered either of my questions (With the caveat that you did reply to one of them with a question, which didn’t answer my question). You have not given answers. You make assertions, then refuse to back them up. You claim that NDEs are real, that you have proof, and then you refuse to answer the questions about that “proof” that are too dificult for you. If you have “proof,” then both of those two questions would have to have answers already accounted for. If you can’t answer either of them, then you do not have proof, you have speculation. It’s hilarious that you’re saying skeptics have not debunked any of your claims, when you refuse to show the very portions of your claims that would allow it to be debunked. You are, in essence, saying you’re right, refusing to show your processes, and then saying that since nobody can find fault in your (unseen) processes, you must be right. Bullshit. You claim to have proof. Show it. Answer the questions. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/237 "2003-08-09T09:53:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I won’t copy your long post, just to say I agree with the religionists when they say, “no one has known any creature to be anything other than what it is,” no one has observed man evolving from a lower species. The trail may point south, but it doesn’t go there, at least, not yet. This is really pretty funny, given your obsession with the idea that life after death has been “proven”. You even claim that your belief in an afterlife is not a question of “faith”, but of hard-headed empirical evidence. By definition, you haven’t observed what will happen to you after you die. Even if, for the sake of argument, we accept that NDE’s are something more than the random neural firings of an oxygen-deprived brain, how do you _know_ that the state of peace and bliss you describe is permanent? Clearly, you haven’t observed what it’s like to be permanently dead. Maybe everyone experiences the tunnel of light and the feeling of peace and universal love…for ten minutes. Then, people who espouse heretical notions like [God never judges anyone](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS+50:6&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) are cast screaming into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity. (Maybe that little touch of bliss is just to make the subsequent eternity of damnation all the worse.) You don’t _believe_ that–and neither do I–but can you _prove_ it isn’t true, to the standards of proof that you apply to **facts** you don’t want to accept? You believe what you want to believe–indeed, you admit this, and apparently glory in it. But believing what you want to believe doesn’t make you a seeker for the truth, it makes you a seeker for what makes _you_ comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/238 "2003-08-09T12:18:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryle Dup \* > \*\*Jesus was the son of god, AFAIK, therefore, _not_ god. \*\* Jesus said: “I and the Father are One.” ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/239 "2003-08-09T12:35:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*I hardly think that a study of spirituality among the terminally ill with less than three months to live is applicable to the population at large. > > No, it is those who claim that the spirit world exists who have no real proof. Please show me some proof. > > I responded to this link earlier in the thread. In a nutshell, that study only examines which factors determine whether or not a person experiences a NDE. The study in no way examines whether NDEs are or are not spiritual in nature. They mention that a spiritual cause for NDEs “should be discussed”. Those are the exact words used. No mention of whether a spiritual cause is even likely to be valid. Just that it should be discussed. > > I really have to wonder which part of that study you’re wanting us to look at, since none of it seems to help your case. Maybe I missed something. \*\* People distressed by death are not that much different than those distressed by life. It is hope for a better future that helps us through the troubles of today. I believe you are the first skeptic to honestly state what the research points out. No, spirituality can not be proven, as yet. But with this research we have the “opportunity” to consider spirituality as an answer. The research shows NDEs are not caused by the dying/dead physical body. That is a great beginning. Thirty years ago Dr. Raymond Moody lost his job for pointing that out. NDEers have been saying that all along. Now we are ready for the varification of information brought back by the experiencers. The University of Virginia is doing some research on this part. How far along? I don’t know. Thank you for your honestly in reading and understanding the report. You are a friend of truth. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179/240 "2003-08-09T13:16:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryle Dup \* > \*\*Jesus was the son of god, AFAIK, therefore, _not_ god. \*\* Where’s Athanasius when you need him?!? 🙂 Seriously, **Ryle** , what you allege (presumably as a debating point) in the quote above was the view of a few heretical sects in the early church, none of which survive. The two I’m certain took that perspective were the Monarchists and the Arians. In today’s world, Jesus is seen as (a) a compete fabrication who never existed; (b) a human being with (i) megalomaniac delusions, (ii) a great deal of mystical insight, or (iii) both of the above, who was (x) killed as a political activist, (y) the victim of his own eschatological tenets, or (z) a religious teacher convred into a God J.G. by his later followers; or (c) the Second Person of the Trinity incarnate as a human being – God living among us as one of us. Ain’t nobody left who thinks he was God’s special emissary but not God in and of himself. In saying Son of God, even in the Hebrew where it’s used to mean “man loyal to God” or something quite similar in the O.T., you’re not using a relational genitive but rather an incorporative, not “GWB was the son of GHWB” (relational) but “The Beaver was the son of the Cleaver family in 1950s TV.” If one construes “Tom Daschle is the leader of the Senate Democrats” to imply that Sen. Daschle is not himself a Senate Democrat, since they are defined as people who follow him, and he as the man who leads them, one has played a semantic game of misconstruing how “of” can be used in English, not made a valid point. As for the basic OP question, the answer is, “You can’t.” Only the Holy Spirit can cause belief, according to Christian doctrine since the days of my namesake; nothing I or 10,000 Screaming Evangelists (yeah, band name :smack: ) can do will instill it. Therefore, what we’re told to do as believers is to live lives that _show Christ_ to our fellow men by how we behave and how we care, making it evident what the Source of our motivation is, but otherwise not overtly preaching Him except as answer to a question. This process “opens the door” for the Spirit to work in the hearts and minds of those with whom we come in contact. I’m not very good at it; I’m too argumentative, too intellectually oriented, and lately too irritable at people whose Bibles evidently have shoulder-stocks and target scopes. But I do try. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-to-make-an-athiest-believe/192179.md?page=13)